BEN WHITE DEAL AGREED – PANIC SETS IN OVER XHAKA/ODEGAARD REPLACEMENTS

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I mean, every single time I complain about slow biz, Arsenal deal that day. No sooner had I let rip that our summer was going down the pan because Captain Edu was busy sailing on the Don Shouldwebedoingthis… we signed a player. Well, kind of.

David Ornstein revealed that the Ben White deal has clocked in at £50m, making the right-sided centre back our 3rd most expensive signing in history. For a club that took made players bring packed lunches last season to save money, this is quite the statement.

As fans, we’re in ‘if Edu is involved, there’s no doubt it’s bad’ mode at the moment… but no doubt if Liverpool or Chelsea did this we’d be praising their shrewd scouting. A bit like Ryan Bertrand causing an #ArtetaOut trending topic, until Leicester went there, and it was fine.

Whatever you think about the deal, this much is true.

He’s a truly unique talent in the way that he plays. He’s been coached by Bielsa, who plays murderball at training, he’s been developed further by the excellent Graham Potter at Brighton. He carries the ball like a midfielder, he can confidently move passes between the lines like David Luiz, and he’s now capped.

Then factor in the next most important thing: he’s robust. He dropped 46 appearances at Leeds during his single season there. He played 36 of Brighton’s 38 games last season. The guy has a body that is ready for the challenge. So, so important for Arsenal this season after watching what Thomas Partey’s unusual run last season did to our campaign. Derisk is my fave new term… and this signing has it all in my opinion.

The big question marks are the same for any young centre back with a newly minted profile: Can they do it at a big club?

Harry McG was mercilessly mocked when he went to United, he’s just made the finals of the Euros conceding two goals. Same for John Stones over at Manchester City. Whenever there is a young British centre back that lands a big move, everyone doubts them, it is absolutely standard. I can even remember West Ham fans telling me Rio was great but would struggle at a big club. I think most of that comes down to branding… when you have a boring name and you look like an 18-30s Ibiza club rep, people doubt your talent.

Changing that view is down to the player. Most Arsenal fans don’t know what to make of it, so let’s hope the plan in place is one that is sharp, because boy do we need him to level us up next season. Still, at 23, if he can do it, it’ll look a bargain in a few years time.

For me, this is a massive piece of the Arteta jigsaw. There can’t be reasons this season as to why the system didn’t work. There can’t be rogue ‘but that player wasn’t quite right’ this season. We need to see the finished product. That finished product needs ball playing centrebacks. Fullbacks that can move and deliver final balls. Creative players that can move the ball at speed and be decisive. Strikers that are finishing their chances.

Even if you don’t understand Ben White, know that he’s important, otherwise they’d have put that money elsewhere. Also, Sky reporting that medical is set for when he’s back from holiday is like, exactly what Le-Grove told you.

Apparently, the club wants to reveal the Kido Hart deal as well as the Sambi Lokonga signing. Honestly, I am really quite thrilled about Lokonga. Even if it doesn’t quite work out, the idea is right. It shows that we’re leaning into the analysts behind the scenes, it shows that we have the smarts at Arsenal to fish out value, and it once again reinforces that the powers that be took note of what old players bring to the dressing room.

The Kido Hart deal is also a superb piece of news. You can keep reading all these weirdos saying the club is crashing and Emery was a better idea than Arteta… but the kids who used to leave under Wenger are now signing deals. You do not entrust your future to a coach you don’t believe in. Kido Hart could have his pick of clubs on the continent, he chose to stay at Arsenal because he sees a future here. I think that’s fucking great news.

I still think the biggest worry for Arsenal fans is where we’re putting the money for the Xhaka replacement and who we’re going to bring in to cover for the loss of Martin Odegaard. We’re not moving things forward without those two positions being filled. Our midfield is not going to be a 21 year old in his first Premier League year.

The big rumblings are that Locatelli is the player they want. Again, he’s a bit slow, but he has so much power and craft to his game. The goss from Italy appears to be that Juventus tapping Sassuolo for a 2-year loan deal with an obligation to buy. Arsenal are sitting outside the office with two suitcases full of cash worth £40m. If you run Sassuolo, who are probably bleeding hard at the moment, are you really going to let Juve pull your pants down like that? Cash is king, particularly this season. You cannot be doing mega clubs favours like that. The club might not survive. It always feels like a longshot move… but if Juve don’t have money, that is a very difficult obstacle to manoeuvre. Can you imagine the fireworks if we managed to pull that deal off?

This is another red flag issue… if you wait 4 weeks and Juve miraculously find the cash, you are fucked, because no one else will deal.

How long do you wait for your primary targets?

What does it cost you?

Can you afford to go into a season with either of those two positions vacant?

Transfer windows for clubs like Arsenal are a moving target. There are so many variables. The job of Edu is to manage them to perfection. So far, he hasn’t always delivered, so this summer is huge.

… one thing we can say about Edu though, he doesn’t sit on money, and he will find players. Not always the players you want, but he finds them.

Arsenal play Rangers today. I’m expecting a sexier performance than the one we saw in the week, but again, calm down, it’s just a friendly.

Before I go… no one told me the new home kit had hooped socks. I am absolutely going full kit on this. Imagine me rolling to a meeting near you soon, wearing these like Payne-Stewart-plus-fours.

OI OI, listen to the podcast.

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823 Responses to “BEN WHITE DEAL AGREED – PANIC SETS IN OVER XHAKA/ODEGAARD REPLACEMENTS”

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  1. Bob N16

    Fair enough Tony, your theory around Arteta is of course is just a theory. Personally, I have no idea if Arteta has mental health issues, I have seen mistakes, signs of stubbornness ( Willian) which I’d put down to inexperience and poor judgement and possibles insecurity over his capabilities.

    Having a powerful ego is surely the default position of the majority of managers, a strong belief in their own abilities, some with more justification than others. If he doesn’t have the right people around him, to question him then mistakes are more likely to be repeated.

    Tony, more than happy for you to join me on the fence! Quick question, do you think that I’m being too belligerent in my questioning of Marc’s ‘position’, sometimes my argumentative self gets the better of me? ( You put me right on Graham 62 a few years ago!)

    Are you watching the Lions tour of SA? The tests starting next week should be good despite the lack of a crowd?

  2. China1

    Habesha it just doesn’t feel that satisfying to spend 25m when you can spend 40m. It’s that feeling you get when you get that text saying the money has been taken from your account.

    You spend all year being non-negotiable – transfer windows are no exception. When buying just offer whatever the other side asks for. Non-negotiable!

  3. Tony

    S Asia
    My daughter is similarly introverted and often lacking emotions but no doubt will end up with a PhD in an Aerospace Engineering major.

    I always enjoy reading your posts. I understand your reasoning and knowledge in what you post and the depth you dive to to make a point.

    I don’t remember you posting re mental health, but at 66 that’s on me, not your posts.

    Funny thing is that increasingly successful business people and wanna be successful people often seek some form of counseling from a specialist psychologist. Billions the series was the first TV series to add that to a drama.

    Equally, psychology is widely used in sports, the military and most areas of life these days.

    As we both know people have got to want to seek guidance for it to work. I believe Arteta still believes he’s invincible along with his obscure/opaque process.

    I doubt he’ll admit to his underlying mental issues/flaws until we fire him because it will be the first time he has to really look inside and question himself. Problem is those kind of people always apportion blame to others, circumstance and tools; hardly ever themselves.

    I still firmly believe if Arteta had been fired after the first semi against Emery, we would have one the home leg and have made the final. Judging Manure’s form at the time, we may have just scraped into the CL.

  4. China1

    My assumption is that arteta doesn’t suffer from any special illnesses – he just believes his own hype which has absolutely not been justified and likes to dig in to show up others (which usually backfires at his own expense)

    If arteta hadn’t spent a couple of years at city with hot air being blown up his ass because sterling improved a bit – and if he’d not been fast tracked to arsenal and was instead managing derby county right now I suspect his ego would’ve remained well in check and he’s spend his time focusing on how to improve his team rather than seeking out egotistical wins and the rush of blowing incredulous sums on players ‘just because’

  5. Bob N16

    China, agree with the seemingly inconsistency over our negotiations.

    I imagine part of it is due to the fact that a club finishing 8th is not quite the draw as we were, which means the selling club possibly gets less pressure from the leaving player. The club must be aware of our poor negotiating in the past and don’t want to come across as patsies. The players we want are attractive propositions, the players we want to sell less so!

    Of course they could just be ineffective negotiators, although one can hope Dick Garlick is a bit more serious than his name!

  6. Habesha Gooner

    Yeah Arteta thinks money always buys quality. Most if the time that is true. But other times actual real scouting buys you quality instead of overspending. If we are waiting for Odegaard and Locatelli, I will be pissed. If they don’t want to join, find others that are just as good. It is not like we are trying to get the next Mbappe with Locatelli and Odegaard. They are very good players but waiting for them would have been sensible if they are generational talents.

    China
    We are doing with white what we did with pepe. No that much over priced but still over priced. In the case of pepe we signed a 40 mil player at best at 72 mil. And again with white we are spending 50 mil when his value is closer to 35 mil. I hope whatever insanity we are going through works for us. Because we can’t afford for it not to work anymore.

  7. Bob N16

    Tony,

    My wife is a psychotherapist and she tends to pick me up if I make ungrounded assumptions! For example, labelling someone as ‘ on the spectrum’ may have some value in describing how someone behaves; a difficulty in understanding how their actions are seemingly without reasonable consideration to people around them. It could of course mean that they are just rude and inconsiderate!

  8. China1

    Yeah Pepe was an exciting player that had massive potential. I don’t regret that we went in for him with a good offer but I do regret that we ran into the negotiation room with our trousers and pants round our ankles holding a briefcase full of notes and shock horror we left with an empty briefcase and a sore ring… oh and Pepe. Who has not yet justified the sore ring…

  9. WengerEagle

    I like Locatelli but as someone on here rightly said- he is not Haaland.

    You have a list and you move your way down it. Plenty of other fish in the sea of comparable quality to Locatelli unlike Haaland who’s a unique 9 for his age profile..

    Why aren’t we looking at guys like Gravenberch at Ajax, Koopmeiners at Alkmaar as Habesha points out, Anguissa, Bissouma, Aouar, Pellegrini, Tchouameni, Neuhaus, Renato Sanches as alternatives.

  10. Valentin

    Tony,

    I agree with some of your assessment of Arteta, but I disagree on the treatment. There is no medical cure for being an narcissistic egotistical control freak jerk.

    The main issue is not his behaviour is the fact that he is not as great manager as he think. Louis Van Goal suffers from the same affliction i.e. being a tyrannical jerk, but he is still a better manager than Arteta.

    People will put up with a dictatorial manager if the results follow or that on a personal level they are benefitting from him. When they have neither, you have players plotting for the manager to be removed (David Luiz this winter) or decide that they would rather leave (Mustafi, Xhaka, Bellerin, …).

    Anyway I fully expect Arteta to be shown the door before Christmas.

  11. Bob N16

    Habesha, I’m not sure if Arteta has quite the control over the price we pay for our transfers as you suggest – at least he shouldn’t have.

    He may well say to Edu that White’s purchase was integral to his plans but if there is not a point where Edu says we’ll have to get our back up target as the selling club want too much, then the Kroenkes have really gone splash happy!

  12. China1

    Arsenal trying to haggling over a couple of million on player sales reminds me of that episode of the simpsons where homer goes to church wearing those fake glasses that have open eyes drawn on them so that he can sleep ‘without anyone knowing’

    Our credibility is just so low it’s very hard to take seriously

  13. WengerEagle

    ‘ Louis Van Goal suffers from the same affliction i.e. being a tyrannical jerk, but he is still a better manager than Arteta.’

    Nah think he was just Dutch.

    Not sure Tet’s excuse, all of those trophies and Spain NT caps as a player must have got to his head.

  14. China1

    I don’t think arteta was like this as a player

    He was consistently rather bland and non-descript. Just a tidy midfielder with a decent range of passing and reading of the game, no other particularly memorable features.

    I think it’s because most footballers are gormless and barely literate Harry Kane sorts that when in his final years he showed a bit of interest in tactics and coaching people were blown away by it because footballers can’t normally strong 5 sentences together without getting a headache let alone play and discuss tactics. That led to him being hilarious bogged up as one of the great young minds in the game, city took a punt on him. Sterling and one or two others improved a bit whilst pep led them to titles on the pitch and suddenly the legend was born of this young genius pulling the strings from behind the scenes just waiting for a platform to be unleashed and take over the world

    That he had a good first 6 months and won the cup then cemented his status as ‘surely’ elite and the next big thing and solidified his place as untouchable. In the second season we saw weird and bad decision after weird and bad decision but once that bandwagon starts rolling it’s very hard to stop and he climbed aboard it with his followers. Now besides a bottom half of the table finish he can basically do no wrong for a sizable portion of the fan base. Expectations are now at historic lows. It’s quite remarkable really

  15. Leftside

    There is literally no reason for Arteta to be so egotistical, we won the FA Cup in a fashion that would have Allardyce and Pulis crying tears of joy into their cups of coffee.

    Whenever I think of our own Mikel Allardyce I picture his bemused face watching on wondering why we are struggling against Villarreal with Partey basically in the centre alone and Smith Rowe up front. Nevermind that we had actual strikers on the bench. There was no logical reason for doing it other than the fact that Pep did it a day earlier in Citys CL tie.

    You cannot be too smart for your own good, if you are not that smart to begin with.

  16. Tony

    Thanks for your thoughts, Bob.

    The problem is the words mental health comes with so much stigma conjuring screaming people being fitted with straight jackets.

    America has led the field in people seeing shrinks as they lovingly refer to them.

    So with Arteta his issues are a real lack of balance to me. He’s unable to see what he is doing is wrong (Willian Dubai trip and Auba’d tardiness). His issues with younger talent is not healthy or correct mentally.

    Like S Asia I’ve read up on the subject and also talked to Dr friends here for many hours into the nights.

    If Arteta can find his inner balance and has a far better grip on reasoning between right and wrong in his treatment of others, he’ll find that his goals will become more clearer and chaos free. He’ll have a much better chance of realizing his goals.

    In a way I feel for Arteta if he’s experiencing levels of chaos I think he is, especially when things go wrong.

    The Amazon series is going to be interesting.

    Thanks for the reminder for the Lion’s tour, I’ll be sure to watch, as it’s better match times for me here. I always try to watch the Southern Hemisphere games each year as well.

    As for Marc. I seriously like the guy and he constantly makes me smile or laugh out loud.

    Brilliant poster here where even through humour, he’s normally right about what his posting.

    Marc’s a top banter guy and probably just about the right gooner to meet in the Tolly if you didn’t know him, but understood the crack.

    Maybe you misunderstand him a little at times re his Arteta bashing. Fact is Arteta has deeply hurt a lot of us and snarks often come out unintended, as sometimes I did with Pierre and his Ozil/Wenger obsessions and pressed send before checking back.

    That doesn’t mean Pierre can’t be an irritating arsehole because he’s certainly mastered that art. However, when Pierre talks agenda less football discussing formations, selections and tactics his posts are both enjoyable and illuminating.

    As for Marc’s Pedro bashing I truly believe Pedro gives as good as he gets with often Pedro resulting in mild trolling or flip flopping for effect.

    So I guess I don’t think you’re too hard on Marc or others. I actually enjoy when your emphatic with your views and the restraint you manage. Something I’d dearly like to learn because when I go filterless both barrels the poor recipient must really wonder about my sanity.

    I’ve written many posts on my iMac that never see the light of day or should do.

    That much I’ve learnt here.

    Let’s hope for a good season and a return to Europe at the end of the season.

  17. Bob N16

    China Arteta ‘ can basically do no wrong’.

    Where are you meeting supporters who believe in Arteta as you suggest? Reading Legrove, Arseblog and the odd other blog and chatting with Arsenal supporting friends, I haven’t noticed this level of confidence and support in Arteta at all.

  18. Leftside

    And, Arsenal fans can not proclaim to be a big club in 2021 after back to back 8th place finishes and the manager isn’t even slightly under pressure. The fans would accept a 6th place finish because that “looks” like progression from the last two seasons.

    We cannot reframe success for Arteta, if he cannot deliver CL football at a minimum and trophies then he should not be managing this football club.

  19. Rich

    People always learn much more from their failures, than they ever do their successes, the bigger the fall, the better the lesson

    Arteta will have learned much more from last season, than he ever did from winning the FA Cup, that’s for certain

    I have no problem with him having a slight ego, the bigger question is:

    Is he self critical enough to objectively analyse his own performance, and intelligent enough to identify how he can improve?

    Can he astutely identify the areas we need to improve, and does he have the right people around him, in order to identify and secure the parts he needs in order for that to happen?

    I have no problem with the non-negotiable’s, if we want to create an elite performance culture, then we need elite behaviour, I’d much rather a manager who demands high standards of behaviour, rather than one that doesn’t

    His mistake was not applying those standards equally, even though dumping Aubameyang for the NLD was the right move, and a ballsy one at that

    Providing we can get the players out, then I think we’ll invest this summer, my biggest concern is that we’ll replace overpaid dross, with more overpaid dross, and that could set us back years

    Wenger losing David Dein cost Arsenal, because where Wenger was more financially prudent, Dein’s attitude was to put it right on the pitch, and would have pushed the club to get certain transfers over the line

    Are Edu, Venkatesham, or Josh Kroenke, strong enough to do what Dein did for Wenger, and help balance out Arteta’s weaknesses in the same way?

    Arteta the head coach doesn’t stress me out like some people, it’s Arteta the manager that worries me, if we secure 3-4 quality players in the 22-25 age range, who have a decent amount of experience, then we’ll be well placed to improve overall next season, and have the wheels in motion of an exciting new project at the beginning of a new cycle

  20. China1

    Bob truth be told if arteta ‘could do wrong’ he’d have already been sacked or completely reigned in. Either we’re counting his wrongs or we’re not. If we are it’s a list as long as my arm. If he can do that and still not have red flags and alarm bells ringing then I’d say yeah he can do no wrong besides totally totally tank us

    Success has already been reframed with lower expectations to accommodate his expected inability to deliver. What is that if not an admission that he can do no wrong?

    That he hasn’t

  21. Tony

    Valentin
    “I agree with some of your assessment of Arteta, but I disagree on the treatment. There is no medical cure for being an narcissistic egotistical control freak jerk.”

    Qualudes or strong Valium? That would at least get rid of the jerk part.

    Could put him in a Bangkok prison for a couple of weeks that would level him and the way he walks in the future.

    I’m reliably informed by my medial friends that there are cocktails of meds to suit most areas of mental health. Problem is they need a month at a time to gauge how they work.

    If Arteta got started now we could be in for an amazing multiple personality manager that would put Don’s many faces to shame.

  22. China1

    When emery was here with a much worse squad in his first season it was considered a great failure and probably sack worthy offense to narrowly come 5th and lose badly in the EL final. With a much better squad and probably a couple of hundred mil spent later we’re now only hopeful of qualifying for the EL because top 4 is too big an ask

    Arteta can do no wrong…

  23. Bob N16

    Cheers for the feedback Tony, I’ve also deleted many a post when I realised I was being mean spirited and likely to get it back fully loaded! I am currently struggling with S*d who I know I should simply ignore!

    I appreciate what you say about Pedro, I guess I get triggered when I feel that there is an attempt to gang up against someone and they are not there to defend themselves. Without appearing to ‘ suck up’ to Pedro, I appreciate reading his blog and feel that although he should of course be open to criticism, he is due our respect for putting in so much effort to allow us a forum to chat. When the ‘ banter’ seems to lose that respect it feels petty and unnecessary.

  24. Habesha Gooner

    Bob N16
    It is not just about the price tag. We are haggling around players that aren’t available or don’t want to move to us. If our targets are only 30 mil + players then what is the point of our scouting department. I know we have culled a number of scouts too.

    We need to have alternatives. It’s not like I don’t want us to sign Locatelli. But the player doesn’t want to move to us. You should move on to the next target by then. That is what proper planning looks like. The director of football should inform the manager that the player doesn’t wan to move. And then we move to the next player similar in profile. 35 mil midfielder or nothing is a stupid strategy.

  25. PhD2020

    TR7July 18, 2021 03:55:35

    All I can say is,a fantastic and very insightful post by you.Truly enjoyed reading it and your insights into the game.

    Amazing TR7…One of the best posts I’ve read to date.

    Stay safe and keep posting.

  26. TR7

    WE

    Gravenberch is smooth and elegant, has a nice turn and glides past his markers well. But he holds on to the ball too much and does not look ready for physicality and intensity of EPL. Perhaps a bit slow too. May well become a top player in 2-3 years but not ready right now. Agree ?

  27. Tom

    “I like Locatelli but as someone on here rightly said- he is not Haaland.“

    WE, I wouldn’t want Haaland here if it became clear he didn’t want to come.

    First rule of squad building —avoid players who don’t believe or have zero interest in what you’re trying to do.

  28. Rich

    China1

    I consistently made the argument that Emery slightly overachieved finishing fifth, he tried to go for top 4 and Europa, but we didn’t quite have the squad

    He then lost a coin toss final against Chelsea, Hazard who was the leagues second best player at the time, settled the game on the day, it happens

    We beat them 2-0 in the league, they beat us 3-2 in the return fixture that season

    Results against Chelsea over the last 6 years have been fairly split

    If you go back to 2016/17 the year Conte won the title, we beat them 3-0 at home, they beat us 3-1 away, we beat them 2-1 in a final

    In 2019/20 we’d lost 2-1 and drew 2-2, before beating them in the FA cup final

    In the summer of 2019/20, we spent £140+ million, and while people were saying we had the best window, I consistently made the argument we’d actually decreased the quality of our squad, instead of increasing it

    I’m not surprised we finished 8th last season, I debated with Pedro and many others at the start of last season, and said it was a real possibility

    I’m also not surprised with Smith-Rowe + Odegaard that our results + performances improved, because with Partey injured, our midfield options were Xhaka, Ceballos, Elneny, then people expect us to play attractive football…..

    It’s not surprising we struggled to break teams down, or play attractive football when you objectively analyse the balance and quality of our squad, then compare it to the quality others have, this mess has been years in construction

    We invested big money to keep Aubameyang here, wrongly IMO, but he is an elite goal scorer, and yet we played the first 14 games without an attacking midfielder, to create the chances he needs to thrive

    We loaned out Kolasinac + Niles in January, then left ourselves with no backup to Tierney, inevitability broke Tierney, then had no left back

    We went into the season 1 injury away from Runarsson becoming our No1 , and actually signed him to begin with

    We signed Soares, turned down offers for Bellerin + Niles, only for Chambers to become our first choice right back, and we gave 32yr Willian a 3yr deal

    Arteta the head coach doesn’t stress me out like some, it’s Arteta the manager that worries me, and this ridiculous job sharing role with Edu

    How are we supposed to hold people to account for their decisions, if we don’t know who’s directly responsible?

    Fix the bureaucracy, improve our decision making, improve our scouting, recruitment, squad planning, contract management, and whoever our head coach is, we’ll give them a better chance of success

    But unless we fix those issues, then we’ll be setting our head coaches up to fail, and end up with a perpetual revolving door of managers, and cement ourselves in mid-table, or maybe even worse

    I’m just praying that by some stroke of luck they get it right this summer, because if Arteta + Edu fail, then Arsenal fail

    A few astute adjustments in the right areas, can see us improve considerably as a team

  29. Spanishdave

    Arteta has two CB s and spent 80mil
    Nothing will change as the midfield hasn’t been sorted out, it’s a mess
    Arteta is not learning , he looked for an instant fix with Willian rather than use the younger players.
    He is clueless

  30. Kroenkephobe

    Tony
    You mention quaaludes and my mind immediately turns to Belushi and that book we were discussing. Maybe we should crowd fund for Arteta to fly (ecomony!) to Los Angeles for a wasted weekend with the ghost of John Belushi at the chateau marmont before the season kicks off. Can’t make things any worse can it?

  31. Waz

    Agree re the comments on recruitment and management. Having watched the two friendlies, one thing is for certain, Arteta football is still just as boring as the entirety of last year.

  32. Sid

    Guys like Van Gaal, Sarri, Mourinho have personality issues, the difference they have earned their stripes.
    Arsenal should Not be Diet Peps crèche

  33. Emiratesstroller

    I think that most posters on Le Grove understand very well by now that Arsenal are being forced to pay “premium” transfer fees if we are going to buy decent quality players.

    Arsenal are not currently in the Champions League nor for that matter competing in Europe.
    Furthermore everyone in the world of football recognise the massive “rebuild job” that the
    club is now forced to undertake.

    What is now imperative is that the recruitment process is right and the mistakes made in the past are not being repeated.

    The club is being forced to “write off” a lot of unwanted players. That is a massive loss, but
    reflects the paucity of the players which we have recruited in the past.

    Let us hope that the club has been more industrious in the latest recruitment. It is one thing
    spending £7 million on Tavares and quite another £50 million on White.

    The White transfer may well be a brilliant piece of business, but if the player fails to deliver
    the consequences will be potentially disastrous.

    There is clearly a very large budget available to Edu and Arteta this summer and it seems
    likely that we are recruiting around 6 new players.

    Three have already been lined up and the remaining 3 are likely to be a GK, RB and MF. The
    latter two are probably dependent on offload of Bellerin and Xhaka.

    Arteta and Edu’s careers at the club are on the line if they fail to deliver. They must know this.

    I agree with Bob’s concerns about Locatelli. He is a very talented player, but if he does not want to move to Arsenal and England why pursue him? This would be in my view a very
    short term transfer with the player and his agitating for a move in a couple of years.

  34. Tony

    Useroz
    My Arteta thinking is down to a collective of things and not simply his actions even if they do represent recurring themes.

    There’s nothing clinical about my Arteta thinking other than similar to you I have Dr friends I discuss many areas of current mental health issues and their effects on society; I’ve often brought Arteta up in the discussion.

    My wife has a different ADHD to me where our son has a mixture of our ADHD symptoms. Our daughter’s brain has small undeveloped areas of her brain, which exhibit vastly different symptoms to the rest of us.

    It’s a complicated mixture to find a good balance for that have had exhausted discussions about that’s been extremely useful in understanding at least the basics of mental heath in general, but also having extensive knowledge about ADHD and similar conditions.

    At first I thought Arteta was just arrogant thinking he was bringing a serious rep with him. Then when he started making mistakes most of Le Grove wouldn’t make, I thought there’s more to Arteta then we can see.

    When you look at Arteta’s long list of repeated managerial and coaching ineptitudes then his awkward body language and madness on the touchline you start to see through the cracks.

    My initial thinking was that Arteta had experienced enough in football to be making such poor non football playing background rookie mistakes a treatment of his players.

    I have no idea what Arteta would be diagnosed as if he had a few consults.

    We know that genius is very close to madness, so maybe there is a genius in Arteta but can’t get out, it needs unlocking.

    If I’m completely wrong – rare I know – but has happened and Arteta has no mental issues whatsoever, then I’ll be thinking that Arteta is a self serving, narcissistic, arrogant xxxx who needs to go when he first derails the team, not keep giving him chances.

    For the record that last part was clinically thought out 🙂

  35. Pierre

    Rich
    “We invested big money to keep Aubameyang here, wrongly IMO, but he is an elite goal scorer, and yet we played the first 14 games without an attacking midfielder, to create the chances he needs to thrive”

    And your next sentence should have read
    ” and our most prolific creator of chances over the past 5/6 years was omitted from the squad”

    But of course, it is a Le Grove non negotiable to admit that we missed Ozil’s creativity..

  36. Rich

    Sid

    Some of the most brilliant people, are usually the most flawed, there’s a fine line between genius and insanity

    Some of the brightest people I’ve come across, are living right on the edge of insanity, particularly highly creative types

    I believe that nature is the best change agent, and that the universe has its own way of balancing people out

    Having such a risk adverse society won’t work out well, falling down and picking yourself up again, builds character, resilience, confidence and wisdom

    Real empathy comes from actually understanding others struggles, not from reading a book about it, because you can only truly understand others struggles, if you’ve experienced similar first hand experiences yourself

    We should be building confidence and resilience into young people, not trying to control them through fear and enforcement

  37. raptora

    Rich: “dumping Aubameyang for the NLD was the right move, and a ballsy one at that”

    Wonder if he had done that if Auba was banging them in like in previous seasons.

  38. raptora

    Stroller: “There is clearly a very large budget available to Edu and Arteta this summer and it seems
    likely that we are recruiting around 6 new players.”

    We’ll see about that. It’s very wishful thinking at best.

    Lets not forget that although we targeted both Partey and Aouar last Summer, it all went down to picking 1 of the 2 as if we were going for both, we could have secured Partey in day 1 of the transfer window and not couple of days before it’s closing. Aouar declining to join us is why the deal didn’t happen although we had the money readied up.

    This shows we had limited funds 12 months ago, which makes me question how in the world some of the fans are convinced we are swinging in a £200-250m inch penis of gold.

    Maybe it is again either an expensive CM say Locatelli/Neves or an expensive AM say Odegaard.

    Maybe that 1 available big signing after the 50m paid for White and the couple of backups purchased is going to be funded entirely by our sales which would make the Summer’s NET spend very standard – in the region of £50-80m (last Summer it was ~£60m).

  39. Pierre

    For me , Saka , Smith Rowe and Willock should be permanent fixtures in the side next season and Martinelli, Balogun and Eddie should be knocking at the door .

    Lacazette and willian, we have to take a hit on and pay them off before the season starts as I can’t see any club paying those wages to 2 ageing players who are on their last legs.

    Aubamayang, though older than Lacazette, can play for another couple of years at the top level in a side that is set up to compliment his style.
    If we are asking him to track back up and down the touchline, then forget it.

    To sell willock and Eddie would be criminal, for me they are ahead of Martinelli at this present time , and I am not sure Martinelli will ever fit into the Arteta way of playing.

    Sad to say but Emery got the best out of Martinelli , Arteta fills his head with too much shit and doesn’t allow him to play his natural game.
    Same could be said for willock and Eddie I suppose.

  40. Tom

    “I appreciate what you say about Pedro, I guess I get triggered when I feel that there is an attempt to gang up against someone and they are not there to defend themselves. Without appearing to ‘ suck up’ to Pedro, I appreciate reading his blog and feel that although he should of course be open to criticism, he is due our respect for putting in so much effort to allow us a forum to chat. When the ‘ banter’ seems to lose that respect it feels petty and unnecessary.“

    Bob, absolutely spot on about Pedro deserving respect for putting up with the abuse but some of it he brings up on himself by his outlandish claims and hyperbole, which I’m assuming are completely intentional to trigger the pushback he gets.

    Arteta is special because he beat the champions of Europe twice might be one example.
    Yes he did, technically speaking , well, kinda.
    Also, WBA put 8 goals past the Champions of Europe though so they also must be special……oh wait.

  41. Tom

    “Arsenal are not currently in the Champions League nor for that matter competing in Europe.
    Furthermore everyone in the world of football recognise the massive “rebuild job” that the
    club is now forced to undertake.”

    Yet being the third best team since Christmas wasn’t a fluke, apparently.

  42. PhD2020

    RichJuly 18, 2021 10:50:49

    Real empathy comes from actually understanding others struggles, not from reading a book about it, because you can only truly understand others struggles,
    if you’ve experienced similar first hand experiences yourself.

    —-
    But in the same breath, wants the right to boo other countries national anthems standing or seating in a stadium?Without responsibility and accountability.

    A total disregard for showing some modicum of respect to the opposing country’s national anthem?

    Forget about the struggles of that said nation in question,just boo them-because according to Rich:”It’s pantomime” to paraphrase him.The woke left-are too sensitive.

    So much for real empathy,understanding the struggles of others you say…
    F*ck ’em according to your principle of freedom of expression,without responsibility and accountability.

    But simultaneously,need to show real empathy according to you…..
    Lol..

    Twisting and turning in the wind as per usual.

    As you were.

  43. Emiratesstroller

    Raptora

    As Pedro posted two days ago do you seriously believe that Arsenal’s transfer business ends
    with White, Tavares and Lokondo?

    We will need at least one more major signing in midfield and a second string goalkeeper. The club is not going into a new season without replacements in those departments.

    There are too many people like yourself who post on here looking for negatives.

    Pierre

    Arsenal were faced with two choices regarding Aubameyang. Losing a player who scored
    29 goals in the year preceding renewal of contract and was a consistent 25-30 goal scorer
    per season or being forced into the transfer market and spending £50 Million + on a new striker.

    The club chose the cheaper and less risky option.

    Personally I don’t think that Arsenal will replace strikers this season, but that will be a priority next season and will probably eat up most of our transfer budget.

  44. Rich

    Pierre

    With young players, it’s often about timing

    Smith Rowe could have fallen via the wayside, but Arsenal not having an attacking midfielder, created an opening, and he filled that opening because he had qualities we desperately needed

    I really like Nketiah, but at 22, he has to start playing competitive football consistently in order to develop, there’s no value in him staying to be a bit part player

    We screwed up his development, had he been out playing every week for the past season and a half, there’d be a very different conversation currently taking place

    Nelson could become another Gnabry situation

    Had we sent him out to the Championship after Germany, then to the PL this season, we’d be having a very different conversation this summer

    We should definitely renew his contract and loan him out, rather than selling him for peanuts

    If we can’t sell Aubameyang or Lacazette this summer, then we should send Balogun to the Championship to pick up 40 games

    It’s why I don’t have a problem with Saliba out on loan, I’d rather he went domestically, but we either play him ourselves, or send him to develop elsewhere, Saliba staying and sitting in the stand for 80% of the season, was the worst possible outcome for both player + club

    I really like Willock, but we either play him, make a decision to renew his contract + loan him out, or decide to sell him

    Willock is 22 next month, he can’t afford to stay, not play consistently, and see his development stagnate, these are important years for young players

    We need to start using the loan market to develop young talent for the first team, and pump young players value, in a much smarter way

    The more young players we develop, not just for our first team, but who we help achieve careers in football, the better it reflects on the club i

  45. raptora

    Pierre: “Sad to say but Emery got the best out of Martinelli , Arteta fills his head with too much shit and doesn’t allow him to play his natural game.”

    True. He did appear for Brazil couple of days ago. 2-1 down with just 12 minutes left, Martinelli came on as a sub vs the UAE, his cross lead to the equalizer, he scored his 1st goal at this level to give Brazil the lead. And his challenges, something he has done several times for Arsenal, lead to 2 more goals for Brazil. 4 goals from the 79th min onwards after he was brought to the game in the 78th. Again, he’s done that for Arsenal several times.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVIThyB1c78
    https://dailycannon.com/2021/07/martinelli-goal-for-brazil-video/

    He is a special talent. He needs to play games. Sell Lacazette. Play with Auba, Martinelli, Balogun.

    Get Matheus Cunha before he’s worth 70m pounds. He will be a top player in a couple of seasons. You get a 22 yo player that can bang them in for fun from AM, second striker positions. You can see they are already building up an understanding with Martinelli in Brazil’s Olympics team.

  46. Rich

    PHD2020

    I said build resilience in people, if you’re offended by someone booing a national anthem, then you’re a complete pu**y, who needs to grow a pair

    I’m talking about empathy for actual problems, not a tiny minority of snowflakes who aren’t really offended by people booing a national anthem

    But who think that by feigning offence, they can highlight their own virtues, in order to feed their own vanity

    How would you enforce the non booing of national anthems?

    I know you’ve suggested violence, and copying the Chinese

    And that doesn’t come as a surprise to me from a control freak narcissist like yourself

    You claim to be all nice and about respect, and I don’t mind you insulting me, but I could drag up previous posts where you’ve said vile things about my wife

    So you might want to climb down off your high horse, and get your own behaviour in check, before you start demanding the enforcement of people booing rival national anthems

    We have the equalities act in his country, as well as harassment laws, and anyone breaking those laws, should be arrested

    But outside of those laws nobody has a right to not be offended, otherwise all someone has to say is “I’m offended” and the conversation gets shut down

    Silencing people doesn’t change their opinions, you change peoples opinions through reasoned logic and common sense, silencing them usually has the opposite effect, because people then go to extremes to ensure their voices are being heard

  47. PhD2020

    RichJuly 18, 2021 11:38:08
    You claim to be all nice and about respect, and I don’t mind you insulting me, but I could drag up previous posts where you’ve said vile things about my wife

    Please do?

    I’m all eyes.

    And if I have-sincere apologies to you.

    But provide the evidence please.

  48. Up 4 grabs now

    Afternoon,

    if you think we over pay for players Cough Cough Pepe.

    Take a look at these for Barcelona. 857 Million Euros in total fees, no wonder there 1.2 billion in debt
    There top ten highest purchases, see how many you would pick as good value.

    for me its these three, Neymar, Suarez and Zlatan the other seven, oh dear.

    Coutinho 135 million Euros valued at 30 million they still owe 30 million Euros to the Bindippers
    Ousmane Dembele 135 million valued 50 million Euros 18 goals 14 assists in 4 seasons 81 games
    Griezmann 120 million Euros 22 goals 12 assists in two seasons valued at 60 million
    Neymar 88 million Euros (sold for 142 million profit)
    Frenkie de jong 86 million Euros (5 goals 6 assists in two seasons) still owe 40 million on him
    Luiz suarez 82 million Euros sold for 7 million euros
    Zlatan 70 million Euros 113 goals 43 assista in 122 games
    Miralem Pjanic 60 Million Euros no goals/assists in 19 games current value 20 million after 1 season
    malcolm 41 million Euros 1 goal 2 assists in 15 games sold after 1 season 1 million euros loss
    Paulinho 40 million Euros 9 goals 3 assists in 34 games sold for 2 Miliion Euros profit

    how many transfers had Raul sticky fingerprints over them.

    couldn’t happen to a nicer club!

  49. raptora

    Stroller: “There are too many people like yourself who post on here looking for negatives.”

    ?????

    We haven’t spend more than £95m NET (with Europa and matchday revenue in) in our history yet here you are calling me negative that I don’t believe we’ll spend £200-250m NET in our Covid restriction, no Europa club reality?

    Maybe you are the painfully optimistic one. I mean, I’ll be happy to be proven wrong but it’d be a thing out of the ordinary that no one should have expected, than something that you’d be convinced about like you are.

    Stroller: “As Pedro posted two days ago do you seriously believe that Arsenal’s transfer business ends with White, Tavares and Lokondo?”

    I told you I expect to make 1 big signing funded by our sales.

    You should try reading for a change. I explained how it was always Aouar or Partey but in the end you think we’ll splash 200-250m? You have the freedom to think so. Just wonder how are you so convinced about it and you’re calling me negative that I don’t expect something that has never happened in Arsenal’s history to happen this Summer.

  50. Davi

    Laca was our best striker last year, by a long way. Whatever the contract situation, if we’re not buying a new striker this summer, we have to assume he would be our best striker again. He works harder and suits a system with one striker much better than Auba. Selling Laca immediately reduces the quality of our first team as Auba has shown very little ability to play the lone CF role effectively, even when he was scoring regularly.
    If it were up to me, we’d find a way to move Auba on (easier said than done, I know, which is why I don’t think we’re considering it), and start the year with Laca, GM and Balogun. At least with this setup, we could be confident of having a starting striker who could fit the system and do the job. I think GM would also be a serious challenge for Laca, and could easily usurp him by the end of the season.
    It feels a bit like the Leno-martinez situation again – one has more clout based on historical performances but the other plays better now.

  51. PhD2020

    RichJuly 18, 2021 11:38:08

    I said build resilience in people, if you’re offended by someone booing a national anthem, then you’re a complete pu**y, who needs to grow a pair

    —–

    It’s not about me you plum.

    Again,your ignorance blinds you to the fact that other nations,might fight the prospect of their national anthem being booed disrespectful.

    The blood, sweat and tears of such people who fought to build and defend their country, along with their history being reduced to a pantomime for a few seconds or minutes, wouldn’t exactly sit well with their whole being.

    But your ignorance and lack of empathy, detaches you from walking a mile in the opposing fans shoes.Despite you talking about empathy.

    PS
    Still awaiting your evidence of me allegedly saying”vile things about your wife”-according to you.

  52. Emiratesstroller

    raptora

    I have never suggested £200 million being spent in this transfer window nor discussed a net
    spend.

    I have suggested in past that I expect the club to spend around £150 million this irrespective
    of whether we make sales. That would be a record for club.

  53. China1

    Wow I know it’s Barca but those zlatan numbers are insane considering he was not their golden boy and they actively tried to sell him

  54. Rich

    PHD2020

    Both you and another poster said vile things about my wife, I’m not going to go back through thousands of other posts to get them

    But I’m sure plenty on here remember, as certainly do you

    I wouldn’t want a false apology anyway, because saying sorry would mean you have remorse, and I know you don’t

    I’d have much more respect if you stuck to your words and owned them, but you won’t, because I can read you like a book

    I do remember it was on a Sunday evening though , so if I have the time + patience, it wouldn’t be too hard to drag back up

    But after the vile things you and someone else posted, it might be better for you to just to accept the giant L, and post your apology now

  55. Bob N16

    For me, booing at football matches is always a little bit ‘pantomime villain’ – not to be taken too seriously.

    I wouldn’t boo a national anthem- seems a little puerile to me.

    The booing of an anti racist action, the taking of the knee, I do object to. What does it say about you if you’re booing people who are trying to confront racism?

    I’m not a Republican but I wish in Britain we had an anthem celebrating our country rather one that asks a deity to look out for our reigning monarch. I’m not religious and I’m not a monarchist so the words feel wrong to me, let alone the tune which usually gets massacred by the people singing it, due to its dirge-like qualities

  56. CG

    According to The Times.

    White on a 4 year contract, not 5?

    £120k x 208 weeks = £25,000 000 + £50, 000 000
    = £75 000 000 package

    CG Needle Meter Rating.

    4/10.

  57. China1

    Zlatan is a generational player in the truest sense of the word

    I know Messi and Ronaldo dominate the era but the truth is zlatan is nothing short of an absolutely phenomenon even if he won’t be considered a rival to peel and Mara Donna like they are

    The quality, consistency and longevity are out of this world. He’s an absolute animal. His goal vs England (in a game when he scored all 4 against us…) was one of the best goals ever. Fucking monster

  58. Useroz

    Let’s not entertain the Odegaard rumours again despite renewed noises in the media.

    It’s a no brainer we need many more goals and assists from the midfield. Anyone who hasn’t been doing it in another league wouldn’t likely make it in the PL, riding on similar rationale Arteta uses to throw Saliba across the border without even one proper PL match in an Arsenal shirt.!

  59. Rich

    PMS2020

    We live in one of the most free countries in the world, authoritarianism only leads to either extremism, or more authoritarianism in order to enforce those rules

    Nobody has the right to not be offended, if you ban the booing of national anthems

    Then what’s next? Arsenal fans can’t boo Spurs players, because Spurs fans are offended?

    Of course it’s a pantomime, why do you think people go to them games, when they can watch them at home?

    They go for the match day experience, I’ve been to home nations games plenty of times in my younger days, and booed national anthems myself, and absolutely nobody was offended

    You’ve got some on the left in this country who boo their own national anthem, and while I see them people as a 5th column, I’d still stand next to them and fight for their right to do so

    If you want the enforcement of booing national anthems, then you’re out of your tiny little mind

    You seem to think that bending the fabric of a free country, in order to pander to non free countries is a good thing

    Whereas I think we should stand up for freedom and the right to offend

  60. Up 4 grabs now

    i keep saying it we dont have 200 million plus to spend.
    Not unless scrooge mc kronke has had a change of heart.

    we wouldnt pay the 4 million extra for Buendia
    were haggling over 3-4 million for auooar
    were haggling for 2 million from Roma for xhaka
    we wont let bellerin go unless its for cash.
    even with white we tried to get him for 40 then 47 million instead of 50 million.

    big clubs with money to spend dont act like that.

  61. Up 4 grabs now

    China

    Zlatan for me should have been up there with Messi & Ronaldo as the big three.
    quality player, and wenger wanted to give him a trial all those years ago.

    Zlatan doesnt do trials!

  62. Kroenkephobe

    PhD

    If I may interject?

    I’m the happy culprit there, not you. And the person accusing you of those things should issue a cloying apology because you had nothing to do with it.

    I made those slurs after he laughably called me, and I quote, a ‘massive gimp’. You can only imagine how much that cut me to the quick and I spent the rest of the day sobbing with a rosary…😀

    Another metaphor that the unmentionable personage used recently was the one about stones and glass houses. If only he applied it to himself…

    So expect a full throated apology any minute now because he’s a real man, not like the rest of us who have female genitalia because we read and have qualifications of various kinds.

    Bonne chance!

  63. Dissenter

    Rich
    What part of respecting other cultures is so offensive to you.
    You want the right to impose your values on everyone else and do not wish to accept any consequences for doing so. You want to continue to boo anthems, which by the way may be very dear to their value systems, the same way ethnicity, gender identity or race may be crucial to others, then your pompous ass will call them a snowflake for being offended by it.

    I remember arguing here with a poster who keeps returning with different monikers that the song gooners used to sing to abuse Adebayor was virulently racist; the one about his mother washing elephants.
    The same arguments you’re deploying for booing national anthems was used to defend the right to sing that stupid song. The crowd had the good given right to sing the song but hey, the player who over reacted was a snowflake.
    You want to be able to scream ‘fire’ in a crowded theatre without consequences, after all it’s just banter.

  64. Rich

    Kroenkephobe

    It was you as well, but I left your name out of it, because it’s much better we ignore each other, than making this place a toxic environment for others

    It was also PHD2020 who got involved with a few of his own, which I remember as clear as day

  65. Marc

    Rich

    You do realise that there’s a difference between having authoritarian rules and manors or a bit of class?

    I would’ve thought you’d be a fan of the idea of chivalry and how it used to exist. We can’t have that in the modern world but there’s a world of difference between booing opposition players and respecting their national anthem.

  66. PhD2020

    RichJuly 18, 2021 12:10:00
    PHD2020
    Both you and another poster said vile things about my wife, I’m not going to go back through thousands of other posts to get them

    —-
    Nope,not having it.Cite the case.

    You’ve made a scandalous accusation on numerous occasions, of which I’ve ignored till now.

    So,I’m calling you out on it-right now..

    I’m growing tired of your misrepresentations of my statements,attempting to paint me as some vile, rampaging communist who wants people silenced,people attacked with violence and freedom of movement curtailed.

    You’re disingenuous at best,hiding behind the fact that you got kicked out of school-not once,but twice at the age of fourteen-according to you(by the way).

    If you have an issue with education,that’s your cross to bear,just don’t be projecting your insecurities onto others for your own self-satisfication and misery..

    And using your family as a weapon to attack others,is a low blow,even by you.

    Again,cite the case where I allegedly made ‘vile’ comments towards your wife?

    No flip-flopping.

    If you find it-as I said,I’ll offer you a wholesome apology.

    If not-retract your statement and own it.

    And if you don’t find it.Well…everyone has eyes and can make their own interpretations of the situation.

    Over to you..

    Cite the case dude.

  67. Dissenter

    ‘ Whereas I think we should stand up for freedom and the right to offend’

    The right to offend still has some lines that can’t be crossed and these lines aren’t static, they are dynamic concepts that change as societies evolve in enlightenment.
    There was a time when the onus was on the player over-reacting to racist abuse to prove offense was excessive than for the abusers. It was deemed irrational so punish all fans [not just the vile ones]. Now most people won’t bat an eyelid if stadium bans were enforced because society has evolved.

    The evolution is society to confront many ills has created another counter culture who year for the “good ole day”
    Oh I just want the right to boo what may very well be dear to you; doesn’t matter if it’s your anthem, ethnic identity, racial values.
    Right to offend comes with limitations and responsibilities. It’s a qualified right. The veritable example is that you can’t yell “fire” in a crowded theatre and not expect consequences that may follow.

  68. Rich

    Dissenter

    It’s one thing to respect other cultures

    It’s another thing entirely to enforce respecting those cultures, because if we do that, we then become less free

    There’s aspects of multiculturalism that we’ve imported that have been a huge benefit to society, there’s other aspects that’s had catastrophic effects for social cohesion

    Only recently a teacher got beheaded in France for depicting a cartoon of some cloud fairy

    In this country a teacher had to go into hiding with his family for the same thing, while religious fanatics demand blasphemy laws in 2021

    If we give an inch, then they’ll take a mile, and we’ll turn this country into a carbon copy of the authoritarian hell holes we’ve helped some of these nutters escape from

    China1 pointed out the other day, if you live in another country, you have to accept their rules and way of doing things, he has to bend to them, rather than them bending to him

    We seem to think that we should bend our freedoms to other cultures, which is a very dangerous position to take

  69. Samesong

    change peoples opinions through reasoned logic and common sense

    Sorry but not everyone understands what common sense is.

    I would think you would change people opinions by changing your own behaviour first. That’s simple logic and common sense to me.

    Change yourself before you change others.

  70. Kroenkephobe

    Rich
    ⛏️⛏️⛏️⛏️⛏️
    You’re doing an adequate job of it already, but here’s some tools to help you carry on digging that hole for yourself. 😀

  71. Dissenter

    There’s also nothing wrong with using China as an example of a society that places a different value on a national anthem.
    After all China accounts for 18% of the world’s population, how dare us fir using them as an example.

    Whatever happened to simple humane decency, just respect others and treat them the way you want to be treated.

  72. Rich

    Kroenkephobe

    You claimed to have been a diplomat for 30 years, and couldn’t even navigate your way out of a petty squabble on a football blog

    You must have been even worse at your job, than even I’m giving you credit for

  73. China1

    Rich I strongly agree that Britain should strongly work to preserve its freedom of speech.

    Imo it’s less a question of laws and more a question of doing what’s right. I don’t think you should face legal consequences for booing a national anthem but I’d much prefer you have the respect to not do it in the first place. We don’t need the government to force you to stop booing, just the grace and class for you yourself to choose not to.

    As for your point about bending British values in the UK to accommodate foreign values that have become increasingly prevalent. This is a problem, I agree and I don’t think it’s easy to manage. This is one of the difficulties that arises in a socieity that seeks very high levels of tolerance. Though what is the alternative?

  74. Rich

    Kroenkephobe

    You claim to love Argentina for the football atmosphere, I’ve heard it on the TV, and I’m sure it’s a hell of a thrill to have been apart of

    But it sounds pretty toxic to me, they’re not exactly wearing daisy chains around their necks and embracing each other with warmth and love

    So is it only in this country you want to control the booing and chanting at football stadiums?

    And is it only this country you hate? But are happy to tolerate similar behaviours elswhere?

  75. Dissenter

    Rich’
    It’s a global game, not an English game
    Do Germans boo the union Jack or become boorish when “God save the queen” is sung proudly?
    If it’s so harmless than why is the FA trying very hard to stamp it out?

    By the way, you don’t have to live in another country to extend simple human decency.

    You’re mixing up a lot of things here, lots of blurred fundamentals from you, it seems you haven’t properly digested some of the concepts you may have self-educated yourself about.

  76. Sid

    “”””””””RichJuly 18, 2021 10:50:49
    Sid Some of the most brilliant people, are usually the most flawed, there’s a fine line between genius and insanity”””””””””

    Thank for your compliments, im flattered.

  77. Dissenter

    Chuna1
    ‘ We don’t need the government to force you to stop booing, just the grace and class for you yourself to choose not to.’

    Agreed but this was the same debate that came up when they were dealing with people making monkey chants in Spain The vast majority of those making those chants weren’t racists but considered it as banter that was meant to unsettle opposition players.

    It’s always comes up as an over-reach by the state or an authority trying to confront such behaviors because free speech and the right to offend are also important

  78. Sid

    Its because of Aubas FA cup goal, that Diet Pep is here,
    Diet Pep must have played a big role in his renewal, problem is,
    Auba like many others is held back by the in game tactics

  79. PhD2020

    RichJuly 18, 2021 12:10:00
    PHD2020

    Both you and another poster said vile things about my wife, I’m not going to go back through thousands of other posts to get them

    But I’m sure plenty on here remember, as certainly do you.

    I wouldn’t want a false apology anyway, because saying sorry would mean you have remorse, and I know you don’t

    I’d have much more respect if you stuck to your words and owned them, but you won’t, because I can read you like a book

    —–
    More accusations without a fact to support your claim.

    More insinuations and misrepresentations, without citing a quote.

    Doesn’t want a false apology based on??

    ———–
    RichJuly 18, 2021 12:10:00
    I’d have much more respect if you stuck to your words and owned them, but you won’t, because I can read you like a book

    ——-
    Stuck to your own words and respect in the same sentence?

    Still waiting for my alleged -‘vile’ comments to your wife?

    ——————————-
    RichJuly 18, 2021 12:10:00
    I do remember it was on a Sunday evening though , so if I have the time + patience, it wouldn’t be too hard to drag back up

    Still waiting for you to cite the case?

    So, transparent indeed.

    ——–
    So far, just peacocking, posturing, rhetorics, falsehoods, character assassination and fake news or propaganda by you.

    Freedom of speech-huh?

    Upon being called out, your default position is the cancel culture approach..
    Silence the opposition with a one man smearing campaign and try to drag others into your agenda.The mob rule.

    Hmmmm…Who’s the soft cat when being called out?

    So,much for empathy-hey Rich?

  80. Valentin

    Funny how it is the same macho posters accusing others of snowflake who get all prissy and offended when others answers to their constant barrage of insults by mild insults.

    I should have the right to boo national anthem, but others should be forced to respect MY FLAG.
    I CAN question your masculinity, but don’t question me and my wife!
    Schools and diploma are for retard, but do not mention to me back that I failed at school, because I am VERY successful in REAL life.

  81. Rich

    Comparing monkey chants with booing a national anthem is a bad analogy

    Making monkey chants is clearly racist, and under the equalities act, the culprits should be arrested

    We had someone on here the other day comparing booing a national anthem, with somebody being assaulted after a game, which is ridiculous

    Surely people can see the difference?

  82. China1

    Yeah dissenter I agree it’s why this issue is generally a murky mess

    Tho there’s a difference between legal freedoms and ability to take action

    For example even if disgraceful racism or similar things can be defended legally under freedom of speech etc, there’s also freedom for clubs to ban people for life for doing something against their internal policies

    But yeah I think conversations about the law, freedom and tolerance often reside in an awkward and eternally challenged grey area

  83. Valentin

    In the US, every sport games is preceded by the US Anthem, not just professional leagues, even just college sport.

    Try stay seated and not to stand at the US Anthem And see how the natives will tolerate your right of free speech…

    A certain Kopernick lost his job over freedom of speech.

  84. GoonerDave

    phd-
    Ban booing national anthems? Absolutely laughable. Not just a fanny, but incapable of seeing the ramifications of this. And by the way, most of the people who fought for freedom understood that it was for all. Not just for those who agree with you.
    How shockingly stupid – if you actually have a phd, then it’s a poor indictment of modern education. Absolutely no logic at all.
    Unless your phd is in lesbian dance theory or something similar – then, it makes perfect sense.

  85. Marc

    Rich

    Why can’t you accept that many think that booing a National Anthem is just unpleasant behaviour. No one is suggesting reopening Guantanamo Bay or setting up Stalags to punish potential offenders.

    Personally I think it’s a stupid thing to do because all it does is focus the opposition to do better.

  86. Dissenter

    Rich
    There was a time when making monkey chants was considered as just banter. It’s not long ago that it became seen for what it is.
    Same as you arguing like an idiot that anyone from a different culture as you who is offended by heaving a national anthem booed is a “snowflake”

    You can’t have it both ways; you have the right to chant but you don’t get to determine who gets offended. You’re the one espousing the right to offend which means you have to own whatever offense is caused. If someone deems your booing their anthem with the same venom as one that’s racially abused, then you own it.

  87. Valentin

    China1,

    The problem is that the same people who are absolutist on freedom of speech refuse to understand that choice of actions has consequence.

    You can refuse to wear a mask, but in my business/home I make the rule and I can choose to not employ you or accept your business.

    Everybody has right, but everybody has also duties.
    Jean-Jacques Rousseau explained succinctly as the social contract.

    You behave according to the norm of society and you will be accepted and welcome in it. Break the rules of social etiquette and you will get punished. The Laws are just the written extreme form of social etiquette.

    Here we have morons who don’t want to behave according to social norm, yet still except not to be punished. Throwing tantrum and accusation of repression when faced with the consequences of their own actions.

  88. Marc

    Valentin

    I actually think part of the problem with the recent resurgence in “racist” behaviour towards footballers (aside the social media angle which is a whole other conversation) is the attention it’s getting the idiots who are doing it.

    Whilst I’d never condone what they do sometimes it’s best to ignore it and not add fuel to the fire.

  89. PhD2020

    RichJuly 18, 2021 12:21:01

    Whereas I think we should stand up for freedom and the right to offend.

    ——
    And there you have it in a nutshell-“The right to offend.”

    No respect for other countries or nations.

    A simple f*ck ’em approach advocated by Rich.

    PS
    Still waiting for you to cite the case-you charlatan?

  90. Marc

    PhD

    There is a difference between having the right to offend eg freedom of speech and wanting to offend people just because you can.

  91. Moray

    The English view of and attitude towards the world is embarrassing. It’s a humiliation for those of us living abroad, actually.

    People in British stadiums en masse booing opposition national anthems similarly reflects on the small-mindedness of the UK people. But we should not be banning things like this.

    The behaviour of the fans this tournament has spiked England’s chance of hosting an international competition for years to come. Simply awful.

  92. Rich

    China1

    We have the equalities act in this country, racist behaviour or language doesn’t fall under freedom of speech, and neither should it

    My opinion is we don’t have a massive racism problem in the U.K, we have some problems, but I think are certainly in a small minority

    What we have are big cultural problems, there’s aspects of some cultures, that are simply incompatible with others, and what they’re doing, is playing Russian roulette with the fabric of British society

    The definition of racism is a belief that one race is inferior to another, or discriminating against someone based on race

    The left change what it means to be racist every week, because they think by pointing out something is racist, they can point to theirown non racist credentials, and that then feeds their own vanity

    It’s impossible to keep up with what they believe is racist

    Wanting managed + controlled immigration = racist

    Support the instant deportation of foreign criminals + terrorists = racist

    Worried about social cohesion, and can see that’s what’s coming down the track is a massive culture war, where two ideologies so at odds with each other are set to collide = racist

    Voted for Brexit = racist

    These virtue signalling narcissists have completely lose the plot

  93. PhD2020

    MarcJuly 18, 2021 13:19:48
    Valentin
    I actually think part of the problem with the recent resurgence in “racist” behaviour towards footballers (aside the social media angle which is a whole other conversation) is the attention it’s getting the idiots who are doing it.Whilst I’d never condone what they do sometimes it’s best to ignore it and not add fuel to the fire.

    ——
    Actually what’s of interest is that the racist chanting in the UK -seems to be confined to football.

    Not sure,if there’s a problem of fans hurling abuse at Wimbledon, or at Rugby Union matches,Athletic events, Swimming Championships for example.Rarely hear of such occurrences.

    It’s an interesting case-for the UK at least.

  94. Kris

    Zlatan was a bad deal for Barca. Those numbers are wrong.

    – They gave Inter 70M Euros + Eto’o for him.
    – He scored 16 league goals in 29 matches, and was then loaned to AC Milan for 1 season.
    – Then they sold him for 24M Euros the following year.

    46M Euros + salary + losing Eto’o for 16 league goals.

  95. Marc

    Moray

    You comment demonstrates the problem with all this – you’re lumping the vast majority of people in with a tiny number of idiots who enjoy and thrive off the attention and constant media attention.

  96. Dissenter

    I’ve been racially abused several times in my life, as a black man in the states

    I’m never going to pretend that my pain which is constitutionally protected] is any more grievous than someone from military background [61% of Americans] who may feel offended if something they consider sacred like the flag or anthem is denigrated.

    The sense of shame and/anger is no different, This is selectively for Rich, who is all muddled up.

    Rights come with responsibilities and duties.

  97. Marc

    PhD

    “Actually what’s of interest is that the racist chanting in the UK -seems to be confined to football.”

    How much racist chanting has their been? The only case I can think of was the Spud’s Chelsea match which was season before last. The fact that no action was taken is not only disgusting but just shows that in truth Sky, BT Sport and the PL etc are pretty much full of shit.

  98. Bob N16

    Really interesting debate about the right to free speech.

    I’m in the camp of accepting someone’s right to boo a national anthem, it’s pantomime behaviour. Some people , in my mind, overdo the nationalism having been indoctrinated by the ‘worshipping of the flag’ – jingoistic nonsense.

    But that’s just me.

    At what point does the offended person have enough justification for the ‘offensive behaviour’ to be stopped, or are they over reacting and are being a ‘snowflake’ ?

    There are laws obviously!

  99. Rich

    Dissenter

    You’re mixing up countries here, I don’t know what the laws are in the states

    But here in the U.K. we have laws against racist behaviour, racist behaviour doesn’t fall under freedom of speech

    And if it did, I’d have a huge problem with that

    Surely racist language doesn’t fall under freedom of speech in the US?

  100. S Asoa

    Auba, if you look closely at his misses appears these are precisely guided misses.
    My take is Auba is Arteta out. Aubayeng , as so many young players have testified , at personal level, is without airs. Guess the man can see( what many of us can only speculate ) that Arteta is a s.o.b. Just his disdain for that man that is dictating his lack of goal. No chance, Auba would miss sitters of that kind. The man is so precise .
    Therefore we should hold unto Auba,…come December 😅😂

  101. Marc

    Moray

    En masse really how many were booing? The entire crowd? That’s 60 or 70,000 out of a population of almost 70 million.

    And a good number of those who do boo are just sheep who copy the fucking idiot next to them.

  102. Dissenter

    Rich
    We are talking about other cultures right, which comes up because we are discussing booing national anthems
    You aren’t just talking about UK law here.

    Also just because UK law doesn’t explicitly say it’s illegal doesn’t make it right

  103. Marc

    Bob

    Yes incredibly so and it’s language I’d never use – I worked for many years in an industry that had a large Jewish presence. There’s actually a real problem with that particular chant because Spud fans have taken ownership of it and will sing “Y*d Army”.

    No idea how you deal with that one.

  104. S Asoa

    Today , there has been a very open and illuminating discussion on mental health, how it affects things, etc. Guess many of us who have been on Grove today have got some sensitivity not to go go personal and use insults. An insult implies you have nothing better to say and have lost an argument, not won it. Directing it towards wives and family members, just proves are a goon and a turd as well.
    Finally , let us forget the past wrongs, and continue on a passion for Arsenal, that moves and drives us all..Let us see how it pans out.

  105. Moray

    Marc, the nation is represented by the idiots attending the football match. That’s my point.

    It’s the same mentality which uses spitfires on the front page of the sun when there’s and argument with the EU.

    My parents at in their 70s and 79s, well educated, but Brexit supporting and brainwashed by reading shit like the Telegraph and the Mail.

    The Brits have a well-earned terrible reputation overseas. Spain only take them in because of the cash they spend. Of course it’s not all (I’m British myself) but I doubt most nations would be surprised if their national anthem was booed in a British stadium. And we’re talking hundreds of years of this shit.

  106. Marc

    PhD

    Well if you did that I have the legal recourse of suing you for slander or libel. The issue would be the context in which you said it – a small crowd where people know me and know it’s not true – no implications and water off a ducks back (I’m pretty thick skinned) if it were to be in a context that could affect things then I’d destroy you in court.

  107. Bob N16

    Marc,

    I believe that there are a lot of people who have racist tendencies who do not voice their racism as they know that the majority of people who be disgusted by their behaviour.

    I think that these days it’s not enough to be a non racist, one should be anti racist and even more people would stay silent rather highlighting their lack of tolerance!

  108. Moray

    “I worked for many years in an industry that had a large Jewish presence.”

    Marc, if you circumcise babies with a rusty scythe then that’s not something to boast about.

  109. S Asoa

    Bob
    Plays replay of his misses. See if if can get Vilareal . Looks like it. See also 2 -3 year old replays and how he was finishing with even less time to aim. Nothing to do with malaria although COVID might decrease lung capacity and get a player panting like Williams.
    Auba is priced out beyond a transfer and at his wages owners would frown him if benched. That is Arteta’s predicament

  110. Marc

    Moray

    I don’t believe the booing was by a majority of fans – a big problem with this is the current media who seem determined to blow any minor event into a global crises.

    Let’s not pretend that other countries don’t have their own issues either. You mention the Sun and Spitfires in an argument with the EU – on the other side you have Tusk saying a special place in hell awaits the UK for leaving.

    I’d say in a battle of being childish it’s a draw.

  111. Samesong

    John Barnes done a terrific interview on the radio the t other day. And he spoke about Britain have always told the world how great they are but never want to hear any of the wrong they do and learn from it.

    There’s more than a minority that are racist in this country. It’s also your upbringing.

    Go to some places up north and the people are vile. If you have the right to offend. Then you also have the right to be educated about your offence.

  112. Marc

    Moray

    And you’ve just talked about the English being perceived badly abroad and then come up with “Marc, if you circumcise babies with a rusty scythe then that’s not something to boast about.”

    You really have to wonder how some peoples brains work.

  113. Marc

    PhD

    You do realise that I’ve pretty much agreed with your point. My comment about having the right to offend doesn’t mean you have to is precisely about responsibility.

  114. Thorough

    SACG
    ‘Locatelli is pushing Sassuolo for a deal with Juve no matter what. Arsenal shoul pull out and give the finger to Locatelli instead of waiting and waiting for a player that is not interested to come here.THERE IS A LOT OF GOOD CMs in Europe just bring one that wants to.come to Arsenal.’

    Indeed, Romano said he’ll rather stay in Sassuolo than come to Arsenal. Fucking Sassuolo. Brats that just got promoted when?

    May be our sauce isn’t as appealing as we think. I doubt if a Sassuolo player will dare reject the great Wenger as shit as he was before departure..seems the Eduteta a is is gradually turning evil.

  115. Bob N16

    Turks = Tusk made me laugh!

    Phd , slightly concerned by your pointing out of the Jewish ownership of the Spuds, what has that got to with the discussion about racist chants?

    S Asoa – classic case of confirmation bias if you think PEA has been missing chances on purpose. Have you not seen the joy on his face when he scores?

  116. PhD2020

    MorayJuly 18, 2021 13:54:32
    Marc, the Turks are animals. Let’s not descend to their level. If that’s your benchmark then the UK is fucked.

    —–
    You do know that our good ole Prime Minister -Boris Johnson is part Turkish?

    Just saying….

    🙂

  117. Dissenter

    I was in the minority regarding that Adebayor incident at city in 2009.

    I think he was perfectly entitled to run at the away gooners who had been singing vile songs about him. I considered that song about his mother being a ‘whore and his father ‘washing elephants ‘ to be 100% vile, the elephant but was racist.

    The FA was right to punish him for inflaming the situation but the fans got away with it too lightly. The over-reaction by some of the fans when he celebrated was comedy; didn’t you expect pushback?

  118. Moray

    “And you’ve just talked about the English being perceived badly abroad and then come up with “Marc, if you circumcise babies with a rusty scythe then that’s not something to boast about.”

    I’m not sure how the two are connected in any way

  119. Moray

    “I think he was perfectly entitled to run at the away gooners who had been singing vile songs about him. I considered that song about his mother being a ‘whore and his father ‘washing elephants ‘ to be 100% vile, the elephant but was racist.”

    It was vile and racist. And stupid also, since surely slating him for thieving from the changing room while his team mates were out training would have been a much better slating?

  120. Rambo

    Every blog, social media platform or anything with a bloody comments section – you find the same rubbish virtue-signaling and the counter arguments.

    What gets me most is seeing the same over on LinkdIn as well. Embarrassing long (and fake) essays captioned off with cringe worthy hashtags around ‘Lets Normalize talking about this shit*y subject’.

    What a joke the Society is becoming and can’t fathom what its gonna be like in 10-20 years. And I feel horrible for my nephews and nieces who would need to grow up in this.

  121. Mb

    If as a club, you want to produce Rooneys and Ronaldos of the world, you should start giving 16 & 17 years old chance to play.

    Or playing Willian, the GOAT.

  122. Moray

    @Rambo, my bugbear is the word “humbled” followed by someone boasting about themselves or their perceived great achievements or being selected in some poll…

  123. Dissenter

    Moray
    Your retort was brilliant. I’m not suggesting that Adebayor wasn;t the douchebag that he was

    Just that many of the away gooners were shocked that someone they had abused all game would have the audacity to confront the abuse.

  124. Dissenter

    “In the immediate aftermath, the FA accepted that the abuse directed towards Adebayor had been of “an extremely provocative nature”.

    Adebayor has since spoken out about the incident, explaining in greater detail how the abuse he suffered went beyond tribalistic flak; rather, that he was subjected to racist taunts.

    In April this year, he told the Daily Mail: “When I celebrated, the FA fined me, they punished me. Nothing happened to the Arsenal fans. So it [racism] started with me and long before me.

    “I remember getting to the stadium and Arsenal fans were there. All I heard was the chant, ‘Your mother is a whore and your father washes elephants.’

    “And now the same FA are trying to stop racism? I’m sorry. It doesn’t work that way. Today is too late. We’re tired. Enough is enough.”

  125. China1

    Safe to say with fuck all football news none of us can control ourselves

    Pedro must be crying out for something arsenal related to talk about after the last few days of discussions we’ve been having lol