The 100+minute matches combined with the intensity of the PL added to high pressing tactics has created this injury epidemic across the league
Tho I don’t feel sorry for clubs suffering with this, I think it’s pretty obvious what needs to happen (including at arsenal if not already) which is more rotation, more subs, earlier subs, and less physically intense training sessions.
Most clubs appear to be behaving as though it’s still 2018 and nothing has changed - and for those clubs (us included) it’s a matter of time until the physical burden breaks the players. We got off lightly last season (again) but if you have players like saka and rice playing every minute of every game they will break sooner or later.
Teams are more frightened about the prospect of reducing their chances of winning today by dropping or taking off players when they’re not injured - but this is folly when said player breaks down and is out injured for far longer than the sum of the time you might have rested them for to stay fit
It’s a scaled up version of what we saw with our own Thomas partey and Tomiyasu. We know they’re a very extreme example because both are highly injury prone - but the answer is simply drop them more often. Otherwise don’t be surprised when after a few games in quick succession they go down holding a hammy. On a less extreme scale same applies to the rest. They may not be injury prone but injuries will become increasingly probable if we let them sit in the red zone so often. Saka looked on the brink of breaking down for a good third of last season and we just played him through it and hoped (aside from a couple of games)
I keep reading project Havertz cost us the league because it took time to bear fruit and we need ready to go signings to win the league.
Yea, that’s just something people who were vehemently against his signing say to save face.
City spent 240m on Gvardiol, Doku, Nunes, and Kovacic and neither started strong.
Doku needed 10 weeks to register his first goal and assist, Gvardiol only came on strong in the run in, Kovacic had one goal/assist all season, and Nunes was a complete nothing.
Players like Rice and Palmer are the exception rather than norm.
One cost a fortune Arsenal may never be able to spend on a single player again, and the other was a once in a decade case of a stacked up club letting a player on a cusp go for cheap so not to stand in a way of his wishes for more minutes and chance at representing his country in Euros.
The idea we sign players that will allow us to run away with the league where the run in won’t be another tight fight is wishful thinking.
When you look at the effect of having haverts in our team vs all those players you mentioned for city, you'd see that city could afford to bed in those guys. They had options better or equal atleast to those players. I mean only Gvardiol is a starter for them really. Maybe Kovacic but not really.
Sale of Ramsdale will merely help to pay the fee for Raya. I am amazed we are not seeking to keep Arthur Okonkwo who’s had 2 great loan spells. Need only find a keeper who is experienced and great value as the no 2 and sell Hein.
I wondered if Okonkwo was worried about what happened to Emi Martinez, where your coaches always see you as backup, making sure he gets himself a job as no 1 in lower league is better than being in arsenal squad but who never plays.
"Arsenal goalkeeper Aaron Ramsdale dressed up as Harry Potter character Hagrid to watch Southampton and former team-mate David Brooks beat Leeds United in the Championship play-off final at Wembley on Sunday."
We need to sell players and get some money back this summer to offset spending. Nketiah and Riess should really fetch something like £10 to £15 mil. Same for Tierney and Lokonga if we can sell them. Ramsdale will be £15 to £20 mil. And ESR if sold will fetch between £25 to £30 mil. Tavarez will be between free and £5 mil.
So there is atleast £50 to £70 mil incoming if Edu does his job properly in selling well. We should use that money along with our kitty to bring in 3 quality players and a Goalkeeper.
I know we're kinda shit at selling but I'm happy you're not in Edu's job. Even with our bad track record of selling players, I'd expect us to bring more than your top number there - £70m.
Eddie (25m), Reiss (20m), Tierney (15m), Lokonga (10m), Ramsdale (25m), ESR (20m), Nuno (8m). This summer we should be making 120m+ without selling a main player.
Then we've got main players that we might be looking to offload - Partey, Zina and Jesus.
We could raise 200m if we wanted to and not suffer too much tbh.
I'm interested to see what we get for Ramsdale now that he had a year off. Aaron should have been sold last summer when his value was at its highest, now execs have had time to think about it for a season and may not be so keen.
He will definitely have the market. A lot teams need Goal keepers. And he is highly rated plus he is English. Newcastle need a keeper, Forrest might need one, heck even Chelsea might need one. If we don't get what we want though he will stay because we don't have to sell.
It's funny Habesha because I think exactly opposite as you, Nketiah has scored goals in prem on regular basis when he starts while Ramsdale has been sat on bench since October. I expect more interest in Eddie than Aaron but there will be a market for both of them.
I think completely the opposite. Ramsdale had two teams in Bournemouth and Sheffield break their record fee for a GK on him. And we did do that too. I think he has a reputation for being a good Goalkeeper. Eddie though, I don't know. He is rated but not enough for us to get good money. It is just my opinion though.
Bro there is no way we are getting those figures. Who will spend £20 mil + on Riess Nelson and Eddie? No one. Kudus went for £35 mil last summer. And he was a top talent. Your numbers are pure imagination.
Nah. He is not fetching that. Plus he is on a 100k a week. We are getting £15 mil at best. £25 mil would be a record or close to it for below midtable English sides. And he isn't moving to a bigger club that can spend like Villa, Westham and the like. Expect Palace, Nottingham Forrest, Ipswich. Same for Riess.
Hamed Junior Traore - Bournemouth - £20m (I've no clue who this fella is)
Alex Scott - Bournemouth - £20m as well.
Kevin Schade - Brentford - £22m (a winger from Germany has scored 2x less goals than Reiss did there in his loan)
Nathan Collins - Brentford - £20m.
João Pedro - Brighton - £30m.
Carlos Baleba - Brighton - £23.2m.
Adam Wharton - Palace - up to £22m.
Matheus França - Palace - up to £26m.
Beto - Everton - £21.4m.
Iwobi - Fulham - £22m.
Calvin Bassey - Fulham - £22m.
Ibrahim Sangaré - Forest - £30m.
Kudus - West Ham - £38m.
Edson Alvarez - West Ham - £35.4m.
James Ward-Prowse - West Ham - £30m.
Mavropanos - West Ham - £21m.
Matheus Cunha - Wolves - £44m.
Think I gathered all of the transfers upwards of 20m made of the "lower" teams, last summer only. I didn't include Villa cause apparently, they are kinda wealthy.
Anyhow, 18 players in one summer would suggest lower teams do pay >£20m for players and quite often too.
Fair enough. But what you didn't have in your list is the wages of a lot of these players. Eddie is on 100k a week. So to offset his contract here, the team signing him will have to offer a signing on fee, which means they will ask us to take a cut on our transfer fee. It wouldn't shock me if we got £20 mil for Eddie though because strikers are on demand. For Riess I would be shocked to get more than £15 mil.
I doubt we sell Vieira. I think he still has a future here. Although this season hasn't helped, he didn't play much because of injuries. But from the limited games he did play, he showed he could be a difference maker. He can unlock teams with his through balls, he's got a cracking shot and he can be useful versus bogey teams like Fulham, where he won a pen and assisted Eddie. In transition games or games where we're facing a mid block, he'll prove his worth. His contract runs out in 2027, so we can easily give him next season and make a decision in the summer of 2025.
I would sell ESR instead who unfortunately will never realize his potential. And boy, his potential was sky high... God damn injuries but what can you do. Life sucks. We should sell and give him the best chance to have a decent career as a starter in another club instead of a deep benchwarmer here.
Viera is your favorite. He has been a flop since he signed for us. I can only count handful of games I have been impressed since he joined. The rest he has been poor. I wouldn't be surprised if he is loaned out to beef up his price tag for when we sell him the next summer.
The only reason he stays will be because there is no market for him and we have to sell ESR instead and we don't have enough funds for a replacement.
He came in 2 seasons ago, young, from abroad, it's only expected his first season was the way it was. In 23/24 it was obvious he was ready and Arteta agreed by playing him in 11 out of our 14 games between August and November.
Then he had a groin surgery and was out for 4 months. By the time he was available again, probably his form was not up to par, also the team had evolved and Arteta had other trustworthy options in midfield like Rice at 8 with Jorgi or Partey holding.
I would give him next season. But we'll see the bosses decisions. I expect us to keep him but we'll see.
We will see but I don't rate him that much. If he stays, it will be because there will be market for others and not him. Because he hasn't produced anything. And he is almost 24.
I would be amazed if we buy Rashford, it seems very unlikely.
Club appear to be taking a player's personality seriously and it looks like Marcus wouldn't fit in to our culture going by his social media antics but who knows, I'm reading headlines that there is a £40 million release clause which would make him cheap.
However, I agree with Arteta that we need to know who are our preferred starting eleven and then improve our bench so that they are good enough to rotate.
If we talk about our attack we have two options who can come off the bench or even start in Jesus and Trossard.
Jorginho can also play in DMF role if we want to rest Rice. On the other hand it is clear that Arteta does not consider either Smith-Rowe or Vieira good enough to come off bench let alone starters
to play regularly in midfield.
The left back position is at the moment unresolved and there is concern about cover for Saliba
and Gabriel as and when required.
We need a second string goalkeeper. Szcesny would make an ideal replacement for Ramsdale and
Saliba cover - White and TT. Obviously this stretches our FB resources where I'd hope we'll strengthen with a versatile player who can play both sides, like Timber.
Are all reliable, but if we keep beasting them, then eventually that strain is going to take its toll.
Then I fear some players behind them, aren’t equipped to offer similar levels of robustness + availability across a significant timeframe, if circumstances dictated.
If you look at the issues that United, Chelsea, Newcastle have all had this season.
Then we need to learn from that, and then adapt our squad accordingly if possibly.
It’s better to watch others fall flat on their faces and learn lessons from that, rather than needing to fall flat on our own face in order to learn the same lessons..
I get that there’s a fine line between stability + cohesion, and stagnation + malaise, and that can be a tricky tightrope to walk when the margins are so fine..
That incomings will almost certainly be based on outgoings to some degree.. And we don’t know what type of market there will be to move players on.
But outside of a really top midfielder, I really hope we focus on options who Arteta trusts to step in and contribute for the above players, and who can be trusted physically to string consecutive games together if circumstances dictate for a significant period of time.
One further point Arteta prefers to keep a "stable" starting eleven. There are currently eight players
in team who might be considered first team regulars.
We are not going to recruit a left wing starter. Martinelli or Trossard will play in that position.
Timber may also be included in starting eleven as LB assuming that he is fully recovered.
So realistically I don't expect Arsenal to buy more than one starting eleven player this summer. Other replacements are likely to come in as upgrades for our bench.
Take your point ES but that's where I think Arteta will have to adapt a little.
If we get in 3 or 4 'starters' it'll mean that he'll have more confidence to rotate some of his 'first eleven' with other players that he has complete faith in. For example, Saka could start say 6/8 games from the bench at a time when we've got a heavy schedule. There were times when he definitely looked leggy and would have benefitted from a lighter schedule. If we sign another top quality attacking player this could be an option.
Initially the newbies may start on the bench but once they are assimilated and playing chemistry is developed, I think a rotated team with two or three changes will happen quite regularly.
The 100+minute matches combined with the intensity of the PL added to high pressing tactics has created this injury epidemic across the league
Tho I don’t feel sorry for clubs suffering with this, I think it’s pretty obvious what needs to happen (including at arsenal if not already) which is more rotation, more subs, earlier subs, and less physically intense training sessions.
Most clubs appear to be behaving as though it’s still 2018 and nothing has changed - and for those clubs (us included) it’s a matter of time until the physical burden breaks the players. We got off lightly last season (again) but if you have players like saka and rice playing every minute of every game they will break sooner or later.
Teams are more frightened about the prospect of reducing their chances of winning today by dropping or taking off players when they’re not injured - but this is folly when said player breaks down and is out injured for far longer than the sum of the time you might have rested them for to stay fit
It’s a scaled up version of what we saw with our own Thomas partey and Tomiyasu. We know they’re a very extreme example because both are highly injury prone - but the answer is simply drop them more often. Otherwise don’t be surprised when after a few games in quick succession they go down holding a hammy. On a less extreme scale same applies to the rest. They may not be injury prone but injuries will become increasingly probable if we let them sit in the red zone so often. Saka looked on the brink of breaking down for a good third of last season and we just played him through it and hoped (aside from a couple of games)
Perfect landing place for Marcus Rashford (and his entourage)-- would be PSG.
He's simply not going to work hard enough in our press-- to support what he might deliver in attack.
I keep reading project Havertz cost us the league because it took time to bear fruit and we need ready to go signings to win the league.
Yea, that’s just something people who were vehemently against his signing say to save face.
City spent 240m on Gvardiol, Doku, Nunes, and Kovacic and neither started strong.
Doku needed 10 weeks to register his first goal and assist, Gvardiol only came on strong in the run in, Kovacic had one goal/assist all season, and Nunes was a complete nothing.
Players like Rice and Palmer are the exception rather than norm.
One cost a fortune Arsenal may never be able to spend on a single player again, and the other was a once in a decade case of a stacked up club letting a player on a cusp go for cheap so not to stand in a way of his wishes for more minutes and chance at representing his country in Euros.
The idea we sign players that will allow us to run away with the league where the run in won’t be another tight fight is wishful thinking.
Keep dreaming.
When you look at the effect of having haverts in our team vs all those players you mentioned for city, you'd see that city could afford to bed in those guys. They had options better or equal atleast to those players. I mean only Gvardiol is a starter for them really. Maybe Kovacic but not really.
Sale of Ramsdale will merely help to pay the fee for Raya. I am amazed we are not seeking to keep Arthur Okonkwo who’s had 2 great loan spells. Need only find a keeper who is experienced and great value as the no 2 and sell Hein.
I wondered if Okonkwo was worried about what happened to Emi Martinez, where your coaches always see you as backup, making sure he gets himself a job as no 1 in lower league is better than being in arsenal squad but who never plays.
I think Arteta rates Hein higher than Okonkwo
Plus great loan spells in league 2 doesn't translate to success in the top flight
"Arsenal goalkeeper Aaron Ramsdale dressed up as Harry Potter character Hagrid to watch Southampton and former team-mate David Brooks beat Leeds United in the Championship play-off final at Wembley on Sunday."
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/arsenal-goalkeeper-aaron-ramsdale-dresses-as-hagrid-from-harry-potter-to-watch-southampton-vs-leeds-david-raya-afc-gunners
We need to sell players and get some money back this summer to offset spending. Nketiah and Riess should really fetch something like £10 to £15 mil. Same for Tierney and Lokonga if we can sell them. Ramsdale will be £15 to £20 mil. And ESR if sold will fetch between £25 to £30 mil. Tavarez will be between free and £5 mil.
So there is atleast £50 to £70 mil incoming if Edu does his job properly in selling well. We should use that money along with our kitty to bring in 3 quality players and a Goalkeeper.
About half that to pay for Raya!
I know we're kinda shit at selling but I'm happy you're not in Edu's job. Even with our bad track record of selling players, I'd expect us to bring more than your top number there - £70m.
Eddie (25m), Reiss (20m), Tierney (15m), Lokonga (10m), Ramsdale (25m), ESR (20m), Nuno (8m). This summer we should be making 120m+ without selling a main player.
Then we've got main players that we might be looking to offload - Partey, Zina and Jesus.
We could raise 200m if we wanted to and not suffer too much tbh.
I'm interested to see what we get for Ramsdale now that he had a year off. Aaron should have been sold last summer when his value was at its highest, now execs have had time to think about it for a season and may not be so keen.
He will definitely have the market. A lot teams need Goal keepers. And he is highly rated plus he is English. Newcastle need a keeper, Forrest might need one, heck even Chelsea might need one. If we don't get what we want though he will stay because we don't have to sell.
It's funny Habesha because I think exactly opposite as you, Nketiah has scored goals in prem on regular basis when he starts while Ramsdale has been sat on bench since October. I expect more interest in Eddie than Aaron but there will be a market for both of them.
I think completely the opposite. Ramsdale had two teams in Bournemouth and Sheffield break their record fee for a GK on him. And we did do that too. I think he has a reputation for being a good Goalkeeper. Eddie though, I don't know. He is rated but not enough for us to get good money. It is just my opinion though.
Bro there is no way we are getting those figures. Who will spend £20 mil + on Riess Nelson and Eddie? No one. Kudus went for £35 mil last summer. And he was a top talent. Your numbers are pure imagination.
We got €35 million for Balogun so if we sell Nketiah for anything less, that bad business.
The price we can receive for a player, isn’t just linked to the value of the player, it’s linked to the size of the contract.
The wages dictate the size of the market we’re selling into.
A £25 million player on a 5 year contract earning £5 million p/a, is a commitment of £50 million.
A £25 million player on a 5yr contract earning £1.2 million p/a, is a commitment of £30 million.
Balogun was on low wages, had an insane season at Remis. Nketiah just sat on our bench for the year. So if we get £20 mil we will have done very well.
We'll see. Maybe 20m for Reiss is over the top but 25m for Eddie is a bit on the short side so there's that.
Eddie £25m at least.
Bob
Nah. He is not fetching that. Plus he is on a 100k a week. We are getting £15 mil at best. £25 mil would be a record or close to it for below midtable English sides. And he isn't moving to a bigger club that can spend like Villa, Westham and the like. Expect Palace, Nottingham Forrest, Ipswich. Same for Riess.
Cameron Archer - Sheff Utd - £20m (CF, scored 4 goals in 23/24)
Hamed Junior Traore - Bournemouth - £20m (I've no clue who this fella is)
Alex Scott - Bournemouth - £20m as well.
Kevin Schade - Brentford - £22m (a winger from Germany has scored 2x less goals than Reiss did there in his loan)
Nathan Collins - Brentford - £20m.
João Pedro - Brighton - £30m.
Carlos Baleba - Brighton - £23.2m.
Adam Wharton - Palace - up to £22m.
Matheus França - Palace - up to £26m.
Beto - Everton - £21.4m.
Iwobi - Fulham - £22m.
Calvin Bassey - Fulham - £22m.
Ibrahim Sangaré - Forest - £30m.
Kudus - West Ham - £38m.
Edson Alvarez - West Ham - £35.4m.
James Ward-Prowse - West Ham - £30m.
Mavropanos - West Ham - £21m.
Matheus Cunha - Wolves - £44m.
Think I gathered all of the transfers upwards of 20m made of the "lower" teams, last summer only. I didn't include Villa cause apparently, they are kinda wealthy.
Anyhow, 18 players in one summer would suggest lower teams do pay >£20m for players and quite often too.
Fair enough. But what you didn't have in your list is the wages of a lot of these players. Eddie is on 100k a week. So to offset his contract here, the team signing him will have to offer a signing on fee, which means they will ask us to take a cut on our transfer fee. It wouldn't shock me if we got £20 mil for Eddie though because strikers are on demand. For Riess I would be shocked to get more than £15 mil.
I doubt we sell Vieira. I think he still has a future here. Although this season hasn't helped, he didn't play much because of injuries. But from the limited games he did play, he showed he could be a difference maker. He can unlock teams with his through balls, he's got a cracking shot and he can be useful versus bogey teams like Fulham, where he won a pen and assisted Eddie. In transition games or games where we're facing a mid block, he'll prove his worth. His contract runs out in 2027, so we can easily give him next season and make a decision in the summer of 2025.
I would sell ESR instead who unfortunately will never realize his potential. And boy, his potential was sky high... God damn injuries but what can you do. Life sucks. We should sell and give him the best chance to have a decent career as a starter in another club instead of a deep benchwarmer here.
Total minutes played in the PL:
Smith-Rowe - 3972
Bukayo Saka - 13455
Saka is a year younger.
It's time to let go.
Rap
Viera is your favorite. He has been a flop since he signed for us. I can only count handful of games I have been impressed since he joined. The rest he has been poor. I wouldn't be surprised if he is loaned out to beef up his price tag for when we sell him the next summer.
The only reason he stays will be because there is no market for him and we have to sell ESR instead and we don't have enough funds for a replacement.
Hab,
Saying he's a flop doesn't tell the whole story.
He came in 2 seasons ago, young, from abroad, it's only expected his first season was the way it was. In 23/24 it was obvious he was ready and Arteta agreed by playing him in 11 out of our 14 games between August and November.
Then he had a groin surgery and was out for 4 months. By the time he was available again, probably his form was not up to par, also the team had evolved and Arteta had other trustworthy options in midfield like Rice at 8 with Jorgi or Partey holding.
I would give him next season. But we'll see the bosses decisions. I expect us to keep him but we'll see.
We will see but I don't rate him that much. If he stays, it will be because there will be market for others and not him. Because he hasn't produced anything. And he is almost 24.
A big no thanks to Rashford
No to Rashford. Exhortation level wages and we need 🏆 🏆... 🏆 , not gambles or rehab projects!
Jesus, may exit depending on fees and who's incoming. Similarly Zinchenko and to an extent Kiwior.
Also, no to likely injury prone...
Bob N16, The kids found a tortoise and named him Bobby. They dont read le grove.
Sid's world is rocking!
I would be amazed if we buy Rashford, it seems very unlikely.
Club appear to be taking a player's personality seriously and it looks like Marcus wouldn't fit in to our culture going by his social media antics but who knows, I'm reading headlines that there is a £40 million release clause which would make him cheap.
No-one would disagree with rotation to a point.
However, I agree with Arteta that we need to know who are our preferred starting eleven and then improve our bench so that they are good enough to rotate.
If we talk about our attack we have two options who can come off the bench or even start in Jesus and Trossard.
Jorginho can also play in DMF role if we want to rest Rice. On the other hand it is clear that Arteta does not consider either Smith-Rowe or Vieira good enough to come off bench let alone starters
to play regularly in midfield.
The left back position is at the moment unresolved and there is concern about cover for Saliba
and Gabriel as and when required.
We need a second string goalkeeper. Szcesny would make an ideal replacement for Ramsdale and
he is Home Grown.
Saliba cover - White and TT. Obviously this stretches our FB resources where I'd hope we'll strengthen with a versatile player who can play both sides, like Timber.
Bob
I really like Tomi, and when he’s fit.. He’s a player that Arteta clearly likes + trusts.
I hope he can get over his issues, his versatility across the backline is vital, but we’ve had 3 seasons of absences now.
The fact we’ve only extended by 12 months tells its own story.
Players I like, but I hope we can move away from if possible, pure based on availability are Jesus, Partey, Zinchenko, Smith Rowe.
I’d almost certainly like another versatile defender.
Man c players with most shots on goal
Haaland 121
Foden 105
Alvarez 98
Arsenal
Saka 108
Odegaard 77
Havertz 69
Your point is?
Teams will be sitting deep against us next season, like they do against Man c who managed 2 counter attack goals. Arsenal had 7.
White, Saliba, Big Gabby, Rice, Ødegaard, Saka.
Are all reliable, but if we keep beasting them, then eventually that strain is going to take its toll.
Then I fear some players behind them, aren’t equipped to offer similar levels of robustness + availability across a significant timeframe, if circumstances dictated.
If you look at the issues that United, Chelsea, Newcastle have all had this season.
Then we need to learn from that, and then adapt our squad accordingly if possibly.
It’s better to watch others fall flat on their faces and learn lessons from that, rather than needing to fall flat on our own face in order to learn the same lessons..
I get that there’s a fine line between stability + cohesion, and stagnation + malaise, and that can be a tricky tightrope to walk when the margins are so fine..
That incomings will almost certainly be based on outgoings to some degree.. And we don’t know what type of market there will be to move players on.
But outside of a really top midfielder, I really hope we focus on options who Arteta trusts to step in and contribute for the above players, and who can be trusted physically to string consecutive games together if circumstances dictate for a significant period of time.
One further point Arteta prefers to keep a "stable" starting eleven. There are currently eight players
in team who might be considered first team regulars.
We are not going to recruit a left wing starter. Martinelli or Trossard will play in that position.
Timber may also be included in starting eleven as LB assuming that he is fully recovered.
So realistically I don't expect Arsenal to buy more than one starting eleven player this summer. Other replacements are likely to come in as upgrades for our bench.
Take your point ES but that's where I think Arteta will have to adapt a little.
If we get in 3 or 4 'starters' it'll mean that he'll have more confidence to rotate some of his 'first eleven' with other players that he has complete faith in. For example, Saka could start say 6/8 games from the bench at a time when we've got a heavy schedule. There were times when he definitely looked leggy and would have benefitted from a lighter schedule. If we sign another top quality attacking player this could be an option.
Initially the newbies may start on the bench but once they are assimilated and playing chemistry is developed, I think a rotated team with two or three changes will happen quite regularly.