Buckle up people, Adam Rae Voge (@AdamVoge) is back with a bang.
If you follow Arsenal with any degree of closeness, you’ve heard the talking point by now:
“After Boxing Day, when Arsenal pulled off its infamous 3-1 upset of Chelsea, the club played top-four football.”
Boxing Day brought the season debut of Emile Smith-Rowe, who quickly endeared himself to supporters and the manager alike becoming a permanent fixture in the starting 11.
The basic statistics make the club’s improvement after Boxing Day easy to see. Arsenal recorded 14 points in its first 14 matches, a pace that over a full season gives you Burnley, 17th place, and relegation fodder. In the 24 matches including and after Smith Rowe’s introduction, Arsenal minted nearly two points per match, which over a season gives you Manchester United, 2nd place and Champions League glory. The club scored 12 goals in the first 14 matches, and 43 (1.79 per game) after. Arsenal conceded 18 goals in those first 14 outings, and only 21 in the 24 matches to follow.
All that considered, you’d expect it to be apparent from match-by-match statistics just how much Arsenal improved once it made the change. Having spent a few weeks wandering that forest, I’m here to tell you it’s not so simple.
Some of the more basic statistics show marked improvement after Boxing Day, even if it’s not earth-shattering. Arsenal averaged about a shot on target better in its final 24 matches, about half an expected goal scored, and completed about two percent more of its passes. The club won about two more tackles and successfully pressured the ball six times more each match.
Some key statistics actually got worse after ESR’s introduction, such as shooting percentage, ball recoveries, and progressive passes per 90 minutes.
In what proved to be some of their most substantial areas of improvement, the Gunners committed around four additional shot-creating actions per match after Boxing Day, and nearly two goals creating-actions. That’s significant – two GCA/90 is also roughly the difference between United and Burnley.
But does any of that make the club almost literally twice as good, in terms of results? It’s hard to say. What’s even harder to say is whether some of those improvements could actually be tied to Smith Rowe, who ranked fourth at the club in GCA/90 and sixth in SCA, behind the likes of Willian and Dani Ceballos.
Smith Rowe is not a statistical darling. He doesn’t score a ton of goals, and his key passes are in the slightly-above-average range among Premier Leaguers. He’s not a Xhaka-level progressive passer, statistically speaking, and he didn’t have eye-popping pressing numbers like some attacking midfielders. (Giovanni Lo Celso pressures the ball about twice as often as Smith Rowe, and with a significantly higher rate of success.)
So where does Smith Rowe, Aston Villa’s dream target, really make his mark on this club? It’s all about the buildup play, and improving the play of Arsenal’s key attackers. And after searching at length, I finally found the data to back it up.
Emile Smith Rowe contributed to Arsenal about 0.59 xgChain every 90 minutes after being introduced, according to Understat. If you’re unfamiliar, xgChain is the cumulative value of every possession a player is involved in. So basically, possessions involving ESR were worth 0.59 goals per 90 minutes.
That rank puts Smith Rowe 49th among midfielders and forwards in the Premier League with at least 1,000 minutes played last season, and third among Arsenal players after Saka and Lacazette.
Another key metric from Understat, xgBuildup, puts Smith Rowe 29th in the Premier League, with 0.35 xgBuildup per 90 minutes. xgBuildup is similar to xgChain, but it doesn’t count your key passes or shots. It’s the closest thing I’ve seen in football to what’s commonly referred to as a “hockey assist.”
Smith Rowe’s xgBuildup was third among Arsenal players with more than 1,000 minutes (Martin Odegaard scored a 0.42 xgBuildup/90 in just over 800 minutes.) Again, that may not blow anyone out of the water, but the combination of the two is interesting. At left, you can see the two charted against each other. Smith Rowe’s plot is among Arsenal’s best, showing his quality contributing directly to goal-scoring opportunities as well as contributing to the build-up play that leads to those opportunities.
Even more interesting, though, is the statistical change in Arsenal’s other leaders once ESR took the pitch. [I know what you are thinking on the graph, grow up]
Statistically, it’s hard to find an Arsenal outfield player who looked to benefit more from Smith Rowe’s introduction than Bukayo Saka. The ⭐Starboy⭐ recorded half a key pass more per 90 minutes after Boxing Day, a.k.a. the difference between Allan Saint-Maximin and Son Heung-Min. His xgBuildup rose from 0.25 (on par with Sander Berge) to 0.37 (Christian Pulisic). And his xgChain rose from 0.49 to 0.72, a difference comparable to going from Granit Xhaka to Jack Grealish.
Four of Saka’s five goals came after Boxing Day, as did all three of his assists.
Another player whose numbers grew significantly was Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang. Pre-Boxing Day, Auba was in the midst of a major slump. Auba had four goal involvements in the first 13 matches of the season, and his buildup numbers weren’t any better. Auba was putting up 1 key pass, 0.35 xgChain and 0.1 xgBuildup per 90 minutes. Perspective: Jarrod Bowen averaged 1 key pass, Daniel Podence has the same xgChain rank and that xgBuildup over a full season would put Auba in the bottom 20 percent among attackers and midfielders in the Premier League.
After Boxing Day? It was a different story. Auba’s numbers shot up, to 0.84 xgChain (comparable to Mo Salah) and 0.22 xgBuildup, still an unremarkable but vastly improved number. Nine of Auba’s 13 goal involvements came after Boxing Day.
Other Arsenal regulars such as Alexandre Lacazette, Thomas Partey and Kieran Tierney improved their play after Boxing Day, but one who stands out as one worth mentioning is the club’s 72-million-pound man, Nicolas Pepe.
Pepe had scored two goals headed into Boxing Day, one from a penalty. His passing was dismal, with 0.31 key passes per 90 minutes, a rate more suited to West Brom’s attack than Arsenal’s. And he was doing next to nothing to create goalscoring opportunities for his teammates, with 0.14 xgChain/90 and 0.06 xgBuildup/90 (again, both comparable to West Brom’s attacking output).
Pepe didn’t start on Boxing Day, but his performance improvement after that point was perhaps the club’s most significant.
Pepe after that day was a different player:
- His key passes/90 rose to 0.7, still a low number but a statistical moonshot from his earlier performance.
- His xgChain rose to 0.56, roughly the statistical equivalent of replacing Karlan Grant with 2020-2021 Paul Pogba.
- His xgBuildup remained low at 0.27, but again was a vast statistical improvement, putting him in the company of Marcus Rashford and Gabriel Jesus, rather than Rhian Brewster or Willian Jose.
That’s right, even Nicolas Pepe did more to help in the build-up! It’s also worth noting that eight of his 10 Premier League goals and his lone assist came after Boxing Day.
So there you have it: Arsenal’s build-up play improved significantly starting on Boxing Day, and its stars performed substantially better. Of course, it is impossible to say precisely how much of that was as a direct result of Emile Smith Rowe’s introduction. Tactics will not have remained exactly the same, and the Chelsea match happened shortly after the switch to the 4-2-3-1. Martin Odegaard’s introduction was also some help. But no matter which way you slice it, ESR’s first start of the season was a major turning point for Arsenal, and likely helped cement him as a starting 11 fixture for the foreseeable future (sorry, Villa!)
Give Adam a follow @AdamVoge and thank him for this immense piece of work. Sambi Lokonga just did! #WelcomeSambi
Podcast records tomorrow, we’ll be live streaming, so put some time aside in the evening to come say hi. 7pm GMT. (TWITCH HOME IS HERE)
Pedro
I’ll join the long queue asking you for your expectations for next season?
Mine is a no excuse top 4.
You?
Happy about Lokonga joining us. Right age and appears to have a high ceiling. I’m sure Tavares and Tierney will appreciate a more speedy, athletic player shielding the left and center backs who can cover for the advancing LB when he makes his runs. I noticed a few posters still calling Arteta a rookie. That is no longer the case and other excuses should be banished to Untold. Sadly AKBs and Pedro won’t see it that way or will they? Hoping for the latter but not holding my breath. Arteta has been given more leeway than Emery had and as… Read more »
We need to see significant progress next season.
We’re not a top four team and haven’t been for a while so I reckon that is a stone too far.
We also need to restore status quote by finishing above the spuds, west ham etc.
Bring through new young players with passion and nous and who can play the system the manager wants. Build the foundations for a team that can reach the heights and stay there together for a few years. It’s not top four next season for me unless our rivals drop the ball badly.
Plus Liverpool will be back on the meds this season so expect them to be charging from the off.
I rate Maddison highly but wonder if he’s already hit his ceiling or being held back at LCFC.
From what I have read Maddison is a highly intelligent player who is dogged in his beliefs and that is a concern for us and Arteta.
If Arteta remains rigid for some and turns a blind eye for others with this non-negotiables, Maddison will fall out with Arteta.
Arteta has to be rid of his toxicity towards players for this season to be successful.
That and forgetting a handbrake exists.
Agreed Tony.
I’ve always been excited by the idea of Madison. The ability is there in spades and he’s just the profile of player we need. The concern is around his mentality and attitude.
Still, you won’t advance by signing yes men and pussies. It’s been part of our problem for years.
Another question is would it weaken or strengthen our rivals Leicester?
I’m up for it. Bring him in and hand him the queue. Let him prove himself.
Moray That’s defeatist talk before a ball has been kicked in anger. How about making a sweeping statement like that after 10 to 15 games? At least let’s start believing we are a top 4 side and, if reality proves we’re not, then we’re not, and we have to ensure we make the EL cup. You’re assuming that the other top 6 clubs are going to be injury free with their top players and not have decisions go against them, as well as slipping up against team they should be beating as has happened in previous seasons. Arteta’s brief should… Read more »
Moray “I’m up for it. Bring him in and hand him the queue. Let him prove himself” Totally on board with that. LCFC are buying well again this season but their acquisitions are not PL ready, so losing Maddison could well set them back a season. Generally, Leicester likes to bed a player in before letting him be a regular to replace a player like Maddison or Maguire . Like you I want fighters and leaders in the team who usually are outspoken. Problem is Arteta doesn’t like outspoken players as Cesc, RVP, Nasri and Sol and so many players… Read more »
Tony, bit weird to fear 24 yr old Maddison has hit his peak. Of all the concerns I hear… this has to be one of the worst.
‘Arteta is too rigid for players’… how many more players need to commit to Arsenal before this baseless myth dies?
Saka, ESR, Martinelli, Balogun, and Kido Hart are all in.
Even players on the out say positive things (Hector/Mustafi)
At some point, you have to accept you have no clue about how the players feel… and maybe you have to take an L if Maddison wants in?
Also, everyone, I don’t want any chat of what going on at Everton. It’s grim and a legal minefield.
Thanks in advance
Tony, as a club with our history and resources we should be always aiming for top four of course. Would I want to make a moonshot run for the CL at the expense of our longer term sustainable growth and development though? The answer is no. We tried that and ended up with a Willian shackled to us for years. Better to aim for a sustained improvement over next season and see where we are at Xmas. We will have many new players to embed and some of the same issues to iron out (such as lack of leadership on… Read more »
Lol Pedro I know how it feels 😉
Moray, amen to that.
We look like a club finally serious about proper development. No more shortcuts.
Honesty about who we are and how we find he next level is very exciting. Maddison would be a game changer though. Mind blowing signing if it happens
China. I hope you don’t know how that player feels
Pedro All fair points but young players have hither ceilings early in their careers; it’s not unheard of. Nice deflection on your goal fro us this season. Too scared or wanting room to maneuver? “baseless myth” Tongue in cheek or just plain trolling? Arteta has fallen out with too many of our squad for it to be a baseless myth. “Even players on the out say positive things (Hector/Mustafi)” Sorry Pedro that got me laughing out load. Players no one wants to buy trying to look good training their manager. Mustafi worst player voted by his team mates last season.… Read more »
Tony,
The players he’s exited or exiting like him.
Our best players are signing their futures to him.
Is anyone fussed if you are LOLing over these facts?
Seems a very odd line of attack for someone concerned he doesn’t get on with people.
Lol Pedro I meant I know how it feels to not want people to discuss certain topics here because of legal minefields
Hahaha I see why you interpreted it that way tho
That’s funny in a very dark way
The wink emoji looked extra incriminating as well
Fml 😂😂
China, that is a relief!
The wink emoji absolutely killed it 😅
Moray I appreciate and respect what you’re saying but not enough t agree with you. Sustainable growth are such pretty words when not backed up by a SMART (Carnegie old school I know) set target. Sustainable growth could be 7th or 6th, couldn’t it? You pretty much agreed with me to assess again at Xmas. However, we need a starting point for our target and that has to be a CL spot. When Pedro agrees with you, you know you got it wrongs because Pedro’s agenda is Arteta first and club second. Same as it was for the AKBs with… Read more »
The remit has to be top 4 at a minimum, if that was what was demanded of Wenger and Emery then it needs to be the same with Arteta.
Hopefully, mistakes of the past will be learned from and corrected. We need to restore pride back in this club. It’s one thing having our traditional rivals insult us but the likes of Leeds, Villa fans etc shouldn’t even have anywhere near the temerity to join in.
Rumor is that camavingas available for €40m
Dunno what kind of mf he is exactly but we should just buy him now.
One thing is sure is there are CMs out there who can add a lot to us. If we fail to get a quality one or any at all it will be entirely on us
I’m gonna say this and then leave it for all eternity,
The reason many hated emery was that we saw it as a weak appointment by an exec team without real knowledge. Emery was not a natural successor to wenger style wise if nothing more. It went as expected. No identity. Language, style, culture were all weak points for emery, a wenger he was not.
‘The players he’s exited or exiting like him’ Sure because he let them rob the club blind on their ridiculous wages. No player looking for a new club is going to bad mouth their previous manager. Our best players are signing their futures to the club. They know managers come and go. If that’s the best you can offer then this discussion is pointless going forward. For the record Arteta failed badly for 18 months. You can cover that up any way you like, but he broke all manner of negative records spanning nearly 3 decades. He couldn’t beat a… Read more »
Unless making top 4 it would be a failure, but being realistic it would mean beating following clubs: Man City, not a snowball’s chance in hell Chelsea, no way with that squad debt and manager. Pool, same squad that won the PL title and a world class manager, no way. Manure, after Varane and Sancho purchase plus more additions and a successful TW, don’t think so. Therefore best AFC even with the incoming players is 5th or 6th, that is reality and no wishful thinking through Arsenal rose colored glasses. I do like the prospective incoming players, but the competition… Read more »
top 5/top 4
Emery put an end to the bashing which was a weak defense for Diet Peps mediocrity
MD-Gunner
I understand your thinking but all new non PL players have to hit the ground running for your assessment to be true.
My guess is some player will take time to get up to PL speed, so Manure’s players probably won’t settle until the back half/end of the season.
Top 4 is the starting point we have to believe we can achieve.
If necessary at Xmas we can reevaluate if we’re too far off the goal. That said if we’re that far off it, then Arteta should be gone.
Beginning of the seasons gonna be a shit show dont be fooled
The league as a whole i mean
AFC will play Man City and Chelsea in August that will tell you right there and then something about the expected points total. In addition Sp*ds in September. From first 6 games 2 that consider winning the title as a minimum and one that eyes top 4. Don’t see more then 2 points from those 3 games. The only way that the bookies top 4 teams will not be in the top 4 is if they collapse. Again can’t see that happening with 3 of them and if Manure do since there was money and will power to have a… Read more »
my issue is that we need all new bodies in for pre season as fast as we can. None of these excuses like TP who joined on the last day of the window. I want them bled in and ready to go.
I want to see Mike Arteta ball this season.. Lets see, glad we are up against the big dogs early
MD-Gunner That’s the brutal reality we’re facing for sure. However, There’s something niggling at me that Arteta might just have something we don’t know about and he’ll make it happen this season. Believe me it’s not a strong belief more of a flight of fancy and hope. We may learn something from pre season that gives us a glimpse of what’s to come. Whether that is a big improvement on last season remains to be seen. Our situation very much hangs on the manager even more so that other clubs because of the continual slide we’ve been on. One thing… Read more »
To Rich’s point, we need to shed players. That is not happening at all. We cannot carry a bloated squad again this year,
We need to sell
Bell
Chambers or Holding
Kola
AMN
Eddie
Nelson
Hopefully Willian
Laca should be sold or offered a one year ASAP
DO not replace these if we dont have to. We cut the wage bill big time too.
I am saying it again for all to read
If we are getting Maddison or Aouar, then they need to come now.
Those teams need time to find replacements.
Pay the cash and shake hands and be done… get them in for preseason…
Then start to concentrate on selling our scrubs
Does anybody know what happened to Armchair gooner? I used to enjoy his content
Guns
I think you’ll find both clubs have already got replacements.
Bojangles said he never worries over what he can’t change; it was good wisdom to impart.
I’m adopting the thinking the club wouldn’t spend £50m on White and not attend to the MF deficiencies and not worrying past that.
Xhaka leaving will be positively cathartic for me.
Other clubs have similar issues getting players in so most won’t have the pre seasons they wanted.
I often chill to emancipator when I’m in my home office.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNAYDipM7GM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eotOxW5QU8Y
Cc, in regards to esr. “Think he’s at home on the left side because he can beat a man and go either way, which is massive.” That can’t be done from the centre of the pitch though? I understand the congestion in a more central role, but he was still able to drift to those channels and produce his goods. I agree that Smith Rowe is a versatile player but I’m definitely in concurrence with Pierre. Smith Rowe’s combination play, especially with Saka is brilliant. He needs to be able to play centrally to link more play. Unless we get… Read more »
And Pedro the gift that just keeps giving…
“because you think it bolsters the last ten years of Wenger tanking as a manager. It doesn’t. We were all there”
If Wenger was tanking then I have literally no words for what Arteta is doing.
There have been 30+ transfers completed by EPL Clubs since the Transfer window opened in
June, but sofar very little money spent in this transfer window.
Manchester City, Chelsea ,Spurs and Manchester United [excluding Heaton] have yet to complete a single incoming transfer.
So the transfer window is a very slow burn sofar with primarily low budget and freebies.
Didn’t know the stuff was talked about earlier.. just seen ticker
Just to add to the esr comment, If we add more control behind Esr, either with partey stepping up a gear with someone like aouor next to him or Bissouma even Neves, it will go a long way to unlocking the whole attacking element of the side. I feel that if tets does get in a proper baller to partner partey, and realises how much more control in the centre of the pitch that affords the team, we will see greater expansive play whether as a result of tets tactics or the plain fact the forwards will have a bit… Read more »
That’s more of a reason for us to get business done. I’ve never got behind the market being slow, different clubs have different priorities and that shouldn’t be used to excuse our relative lack of activity.
I’m really excited by the prospect of Lokonga though. Tavares as a back up has a lot more I guess time and leniency to grow into his role. I feel that Lokonga will be a bigger part of the playing side this season than Tavares (unless he gets time as RB). If he develops into his full potential then we have scored big time. I think it was weagle asking how tall he is haha. 183cm according to the arsenal website, so he’s definitely going to be handy defensively. Very strong in the tackle and to hold opponents off the… Read more »
top four is the minimum requirement this season , we no Arteta is a novice and he has piss poor man management but what we have not seen is this master coaching he supposedly has up his sleeve. He has managed to get rid of Mustaffi, xhaka and luiz that is a shit load of individual errors, bad decision making and poor discipline removed from the squad .He has spent 100 million on his defence and it is likely he will have spent 100million on his CM once the window closes .he has inherited a 200milion strike force if you… Read more »
Media says personal terms agreed with Maddison at c.200k pw and we’d table a bid asap, expected to be £60m or thereabout. Well, have given up on being criticcal about transfer fees, not my money as many pointed out. Though, disagree with how a rockie with poor records on transfers gets to spend relatively big fees during what many call a depressed, slow transfer markets. What about the we make star bit? Maddison is fine. English, PL savvy, track record and all. Just that, if ends up paying £70m, is he the best option for Arsenal longer term, rather than… Read more »
Agree absolutely that we need to have whoever the generational sauce wanted brought in right now.
Players do need to gel and time to learn /memorise the 1,000+ permutation PhD level maneuvers in classroom and on the training ground. Importantly, be coached on how to religiously commit to the process including, but not limited to, a dynamic list of non negotiable.
There should be no excuses the sauce be given yet another season for lack of a proper pre-season for some players…
for some reason I think we might see more of Tavares as this guy plays both full back positions is big and speedy. I would not be surprised to see Tavares on the right Tierney left and white and chambers in the middle .Lego head has options and he seems to love chambers who incidentally always plays better as CB after a stint on the right . We could see chambers and white in the middle although my preference is to have Gabriel in there for his recovery speed and physical presence but if ball playing CB’s are what Arteta… Read more »
Bob/ Rich Morning lads, I enjoyed reading your thoughts yesterday and as usual you both made me think hard about my position re Arteta. I made several attempts to post yesterday but I had one of those days where I was so busy I got nothing done if you know what I mean. Anyway the reason I’m addressing you both is that you seem to share the same frustration with supporters who are setting unreasonable targets for Arteta ie top 4 or out, unreasonable because let’s be fair there are at least 4 teams ( its,city,chelski,pool) who are significantly better… Read more »
“Godfather. Cc was championing Abraham. (and xhaka, so pretty much what we should expect)“
Is this a playground? Abraham led Chelsea to 4th the season before last and was their top goalscorer. He’s a much, much better proposition than Balogun and Martinelli at CF right now…..which was the point made in the post relative to our striking options being 30+ or a teenager.
Just watched the post signing interview of Sambi. One thing he said upfront was “… it was very long…” presumably referring to the transfer process. It’d seem players also wanted transfers sorted out quickly so they manage own affairs and have the focus on the new club, team etc.
Covid obviouy doesn’t help but surely we’d move a little quicker with what we’d control? After all, it seems we aren’t too bothered with losing some money here n there with the players to move. Just don’t nickel and dime to the nth degree and things would move that much quicker….
Almuniasaynomore ,yep agreed and not harsh at all it’s a very very highly paid job , do we think frank Lambard cried when he got sacked …..of course not he new the score and so does Arteta .these guys have there names up in lights , the rewards are great but you have to deliver and in Arsenals case that means finishing in the top four .Asset wise we are probably 4th or 5th in the PREM (could be wrong) so the average expected performance should be to finish 4th or 5th all things being equal. For me making excuses… Read more »
Sammi comes across as genuinely happy to be here, obviously a big step up from the Beligum league. Like his smile and persona displayed during the interview.
He likes to be judged rather than talking about him! ‘Great.
He plays a 6 and box to box but prefers the 6.
A bit of fresh air I suppose, where his responses sound more reflexive than canned.
Good luck Sambi and enjoy our welcome!
Chelseas transfer ban produced Abraham, If Arsenal get a tranfer ban and Balogun is given equal playing time he will perform better than Abraham
You can take this to the bank!
AlmuniasaynomoreJuly 20, 2021 09:41:46
That’s very fair, and realistic. Closest to how the real business world works….
Useroz The Kroenke family are immensely rich and Stan is one of the wealthiest people in world football. The criticism of him since he took a controlling interest in the club has been that he had not invested in the club. Now that the Kroenke family are prepared to release significant funds there are supporters [including posters on Le Grove] who complain that we are a “cheque book club”. The reality is that “cheque book clubs” ie those with greatest spending power win all the major leagues in England, Spain, Germany, Italy and France. Arsenal’s failings in recent seasons has… Read more »
Almunia
“There will be no ‘post Saturday table’ in my house.”
I spilled my coffee there mate. No one can disagree to what you said, except (may be) Arteta himself.
I rated Maddison at Norwich I rated Maddison at Leicester And I see no reason why I won’t rate him at Arsenal. He IS a good signing and believe Arsenal have a good mixture of players in their squad. We all know that it was our Hale end boys that got our season back on track last time out, we were heading for a disastrous season , so disastrous that champagne Charlie went into hibernation and only surfaced when the tide had turned. Strangely, Charlie refuses to recognise this , I’m not quite sure why as it was there for… Read more »
I think every one agrees that Roma’s offer for xhaka is derisory but then it comes from mourine so expected really as he has a special contempt for Arsenal so Arsenal should only sell if Roma come up with 20 million pounds not Euro’s but unlike ES I really want Xhaka gone as he is just not suited to the pace of the prem he tries hard but it is not anywhere near good enough .I think Italy is a great move for him. Xhaka is not a clever guy that much is obvious but hey he is coming back… Read more »
ES Most of the points are well known and have been discussed eg wengers socialist wage system that might have been obstacle to signing some top top players at the time., unfortunately. Regardless, though,what came out of the Wenger regime was that, Arsenal had most *cash* and financially robust amongst all PL teams. I recall in excess of £200m. Point is, despite Kroenkes wealth, again well documented, we aren’t talking about the Kroenke (or more precisely KSE), old or young, *giving* couple of mils to the club to spend in this transfer window. Unless we got it all wrong, and… Read more »
couple of *hundred* mils
Lol…
“Strangely, Charlie refuses to recognise this , I’m not quite sure why as it was there for all to see”
Pierre your comprehension needs a lot of work. Maybe go a day without name dropping me to make some puerile point, I’ve no interest in being another Tony for you to constantly measure yourself against.
Shaun This gets philosophical and concerns the current state of the club etc. I’d like xhaka sold asap, thus window of course. I used to hate (for the club to) losing transfer fees like what’s happening with Xhaka, but then the club doesn’t seem to care…based on loans etc deals Arteta approved last 18 months. So as fans it comes to a point (diff for diff people) where okay just get the damn deal done! , 5 or 10m here and there, £ or €, does it matter anymore given the amounts the club thown away through stupid decisions ?… Read more »
MbJuly 20, 2021 10:12:31
Almunia“There will be no ‘post Saturday table’ in my house.”I spilled my coffee there mate. No one can disagree to what you said, except (may be) Arteta himself
LOL… that should be a non negotiable 🤣
Almunia, fair enough. I strongly believe we should be aiming for a top 4 finish too. Let me ask you this question, ‘ If we narrowly miss out on a top 4 finish can you not imagine a scenario where Arteta would deserve to keep his job? A good cup run(s), 15 pts better off, a +20 GD, a more attractive brand of football? Wouldn’t it be slightly odd to give a novice 2 1/2 seasons to clearly improve the prospects of the club ( if we finish 5th and improve significantly from the previous season) moulding a group of… Read more »
CC,
“Maybe go a day without name dropping me to make some puerile point.”
Your sheer hypocrisy made me laugh. You can’t spend a day without making a disparaging comment about me.
Apply the same standard to yourself and then you will have a leg to stand in.
Bob N16
Yes of course we should be aiming at top four finish assuming that the club achieves its objectives in transfer market.
However, I suspect that Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and maybe Liverpool will finish ahead of us next season and 5th place and closing the points difference may be more realistic.
Useroz
‘All key players should be in before the first PL game that’s a non negotiable.’ Ideally, yes!
An ironic statement as negotiations often go down to the wire…31st August and key targets aren’t always made available to suit us!
So ES would you sack Arteta if he doesn’t make top 4?
Incidentally would you have got rid of him last season, as many of us would have been happy to see?
Bob, Context works both way. So you do expect to reach top or at least make a challenge. What about if the challenge is over by Christmas? Should he then be sacked by Christmas? Remember when Arsenal finished second behind Leicester. There was no progression, we were just lucky the other big teams just suffered a rut. So the same could happen again. Arteta could gets top 4 but there is no progression. For example he succeeds by sheer luck (half the other top 4 challenging clubs have to self isolate and could not train for 3 weeks) and the… Read more »
almuniasaymore Sorry to disagree, but with respect for I know where you come from. You are judging Arteta on results rather than progress. The flaw in that is obvious: he won the FA Cup within months of arriving. Last season he won nothing, missed out on top 4, top 6. By that yardstick he is in decline and pretty useless. But if you care to judge the quality, the know-how, the commitment of the squad he is assembling, you will see real progress, a massive upgrade. A lean mean machine in the making. He is heading the Club in the… Read more »
Manchester United – 1st overall – £595.9m. … Manchester City – 5th overall – £453.9m. … Arsenal – 7th overall – £405.1m. … Chelsea – 8th overall – £386.8m. … Liverpool – 9th overall – £349.1m. … Tottenham Hotspur – 12th overall – £241.8m. … West Ham United – 18th overall – £166.3m. . Arsenal needs to be 3 or 4th in the prem minimum for a club with it’s resources and assets .Arteta should get into the top 4 this season or he should be chopped if he narrowly misses out that is another story and one for debate… Read more »
With no Europe top 4 is a must.
Personally I don’t see it unless a couple of creative mids come in
to supply some ammunition for AUBA AND CO..
Bob I think it depends on many things if Arteta just missed 4th by say Auba missing a penalty. Emery got a pass if we’re honest about it. He was rightly ousted when we started dropping down the table from poor performances with the players downing tools. I think the question you’re asking is not the right time to ask because that would be lessening the value of the target before the first game. At the moment the club hasn’t publicly told Arteta and the fans what their expectations are. Pedro ducks the question each time he’s asked, which I… Read more »
Valentin, I’m no Arteta apologist, if I’d been in charge he’d have been sacked after the EL semi if I hadn’t been persuaded out of sacking him in the previous December! Of course it works both ways, if Arsenal finish in the top 4 and the football’s unattractive there’s an argument to say that we could then attract a better manager with CL football and a squad that been overhauled since Arteta’s arrival, so Arteta could be dumped. Pretty unlikely though. Of course Barca could come in for him!! With all the money that’s being spent, it’s very easy to… Read more »
ES “Arsenal’s negotiating skills are also to blame for our poor handling of transfers and wages. Everyone knows very well that Arsenal and its owner are amongst the richest in world football.So when we want to buy a player the transfer fee is top dollar and when we want to sell the plea of buyer is always poverty. How then do Chelsea with a super rich owner manage to get top dollar when they sell players on top wages? Yes Arsenal negotiation skills appear to be poor but just as likely the goods ( players) they are trying to move… Read more »
Top 4 has to be the target, so far it looks like the club is backing him in the market to get what he wants. He’d have had 2 full summer windows now, he’s having his pre season that he didnt get last year.
There’s no covid excuses or empty stadia anymore, It’s all back to normal.
We also dont have mid week games so no travel distractions too, if he gets his Maddison or Aurora then the target should be top4, anything else and id show him the door.
If we’re also not in or within touching distance of top4 by xmas I’d show him the door too. The rookie or whatever else excuse he’s had has well and truly been exhausted ay this stage for me
Bob, Morning Bob, hope all well. Your revelation of your wife’s occupation the other day made me smile. I think we’re all married to psychotherapists, it’s just your wife is actually qualified. The discussion over Arteta is ,of course, far more nuanced,as are all topics worthy of debate. To be clear,my post this morning was specifically an attempt to explain the apparent hypocrisy of those of us demanding top 4 this season while simultaneously acknowledging the exceptional difficulty of it. I hope that I explained that. In answer to your question I would say no,it has to be top 4… Read more »
Tony,
Top 4 is a challenging but realistic target. We’re obviously just mulling over the expectations for next season.
The question I’m asking has been provoked by the ‘Top 4 or out position’. Throughout my life I’ve always found that I react to categorical statements that don’t allow for shades of grey. Back in school I was forever butting heads with teachers who must have found me at times really irritating. I’ve long realised I have to ease back a little but I love chatting about the Arsenal!
Bob “With all the money that’s being spent, it’s very easy to imagine a scenario that he’s gone by Xmas, if we are nowhere close to top 4.” For me this is very much the point. Clearly the club are spending but with that spend will come a greater risk to Artetas position . I don’t know about you but the “ Top 4 after Christmas “ mantra which even has found it’s way to Untold is far far more pathetic a reason to justify leaving Arteta in post. It’s exactly the same argument that managers use when they loose… Read more »
Val
Cant spend a day without mentioning you? Christ, in your head alone. You only get a tongue in cheek mention when there’s gossip given your history of spin and fake knowledge of matters behind the scenes.
Like the impending fallout behind the scenes that we were told to wait and witness this summer from yourself. Still waiting, maybe tap up an ex-gf for another exclusive.
Almunia, can’t really disagree with your point of view. The only point I would make is that Arteta surely is on a learning curve, he is now no longer a novice manager so no excuses there, but one hopes that as a ‘ project manager’ he is improving and will be able to organise ‘his squad of players’. Our bloated squad is in the process of being overhauled so we should be better off, even if Arteta is dumped. Assuming fans are let in, it’s really going to be interesting how a returning crowd affects things. There is always positivity… Read more »
CC,
Again backtracking and then completely fabricating thing that I never said to further your agenda. Showing your true colour, an ignorant bully who when challenged just fall back on the usual it is only banter excuse.
I said and I stand by what I wrote that Edu was furious that Arteta’s staff was briefing behind the scene against him. Specifically that Partey was his and his alone decision and that Arteta wanted Aouar. When it was clear that negotiation with Aouar were going nowhere and that a decision had to be made otherwise Arsenal would have ended with nobody.
In the unlikely event that we narrowly miss out on top 4 (1-3 points ish range) and improve our quality of football, points tally, GD and Tets gets the absolute best out of the group then I would be very willing to give him a stay of execution.
How likely is that to happen though? Top 4 by and large is a fair metric to judge him on after 2.5 seasons, 2 full summer transfer windows and likely by the end of this window all in 200m+ spent since he was appointed.
Wengereagle, can’t argue with that!
Not a chance Arteta loses his job if he makes top five this season.
80% of Arsenal fans , according to some online polling, sticking with him after the worst season in 30 years says they’ll stick with him again.
And so will the Arsenal brass.
Arsenal might be spending more money on transfers than Chelsea theses days but we are not not like them savages , we have values. Firing underperforming managers makes us sad.
WE, Rather than top 4, I would say points tally is a better metric. Look at Liverpool the season they finished second behind a record breaking ManCity. In any other seasons, Liverpool would have won the title at a canter, but that season ManCity were just out of this world. The same could happen to Arsenal and if as you said he improves the football and the point tally that may be a tad harsh to then dismiss him. However it could also work the other way around. Get top 4 with a very low number of points and that… Read more »
Bob That’s ideally, as you say. Obviously ,and usually, deals go to the wire …. but context is , Arsenal, rather Arteta ,knew what he wanted for ages and would have all the time to line up those deals ahead of the opening of the TW. As some point out here, you can do deals anytime ,just can’t register except during the TWs…. Takes two, actually three, parties to tango of course but many get the impression it’s the same old same old approach in regard to transfer windows we are witnessing. Frankly , don’t want to give Arteta any… Read more »
Val What am I backtracking over? I think you’re a con artist that claims legit sources, that’s the long and short of it. I’ve lost count of the number claims you’ve made about matters behind the scenes. You’ve went toe to toe with Pedro on plenty and he’s actually broke exclusives connected with the club demonstrating his links – you’ve delivered nothing. Ignorant bully am I? So when I dismiss your fabricated claims as nonsense that’s me a bully. You don’t know the meaning of the word. First person to call me that on here was Banford, a guy banished… Read more »
Interesting to see left testicles opinion of Diet Pep is now similar to Sid,
At some point sponge Bob will join us
Top 4 has to be the aim, just don’t agree the outcome is ‘make or break’ for another season as manager. Improvement across all aspects is what will be the deciding factor imo, and it should be. Points, goals, style, story of the season, extenuating circumstances, will all influence a decision to extend or change managers. Same parameters should’ve been there for Emery, but his narrow 5th place got him a stay of execution. Many saw the campaign for what it was outside a near miss, horrible defensively, incoherent style, chaos behind the scenes, and a total collapse at the… Read more »
Alright seedy Sid!
Rodgers is willing to part with Madison because Madison apparently likes to party, and Arsenal need a partner for Partey……..it was just meant to be.
No offense to you people with stats of Games played with Player X vs Games Played Without Player X, but if those games are not played against common opponents then what’s the point of such stats?
It’s sheer nonsense.
If seven games without including games tilted heavily against the top in form squads and then the opposite or close to it, is reflected in the next seven with “said player” then how are those statistics accurate or useful.
You people … smh
Charlie, and what do you mean by extenuating circumstances?
Almunia, thanks for reminding me about Bob’s wifes’ profession, I forgot to add at the time that I’m in the same boat, my wife is also a pyschotherapist (MA from the Minster Centre in Integrative & Psychodynamic Psychotherapy). Contrary to what many might think no, she doesn’t spend all her time studying me. Anyway, back to football. Just wanted to say that it’s all very well stating that this team and that team are better than us so we can’t finish fourth but if it was that simple we could pretty much determine how the season will end when the… Read more »