Virgil van Dijk and William Saliba parallels are interesting

by .

Well, you know it’s a sign of the non-banter era when the biggest international break debate is whether or not there’s a conspiracy against William Saliba because the club wants to loan him to a Championship team.

A few things I wanted to clarify.


I think he’ll be a top player. The signing, as a standalone investment, was kind of wild, but I think his first season in Ligue 1 showed that he has the tools to make it big for us at some point.


Although I think the deal was bad business, I don’t think it was failed business. This should be a good signing. My overarching point was that signing him was a little bit like spending $16k of your £18k home-improvement budget on beer cooler… before you’ve addressed the fact you don’t have a roof or running water.

Ligue 1 Quality

I 100% believe the Championship slander is off the mark. It’s a very strong league that consistently produces top, top talent. Ligue 1 is superior technically, because France, as a general rule of thumb, does its shit right. However, there’s a reason only one teenage centre back managed more than 300 minutes of football in the last 4 seasons in the Premier League… because it is far more competitive. In France, nine U20 players were given +600 minutes (thank you @GiantGooner), why? Because it doesn’t boast the same pound for pound quality as the Premier League… and I think you’d find that our top Championship clubs would battle it out in the top 8 in Ligue 1.

Generational Stuff

People keep batting around the notion of ‘generational talent’, it’s the new hot thing to talk about. However, it’s worth reading up on the early years of VVD. Things weren’t going off for him at 19 years old. He was apparently ‘overtired’ from playing a season at Willem II reserves. Even more interesting than that, and something that might be a consdieration for Saliba is this little snippet from when the player was 17 years old.

Van Dijk’s long rise began the summer he turned 17, in 2008, when he shot up 18 centimeters (7 inches) in height. Before then, Van Dijk has admitted to the BBC, he was a slow, short right-back with an unstable knee, not a player who was good enough to dominate as a central defender.

Saliba is 6ft4, has a huge frame, and he’s only 19 (debuted younger). That’s rapid growth. That sometimes comes with challenges that are best ironed out outside a top 4 challenging team in the Premier League.

Back to VVD, things eventually clicked at Groningen. He then moved to… Celtic. He left Celtic at 24 to go to Southampton. This generational talent didn’t make it to Liverpool until he was 27 years old. Why am I telling you this? Because we need to drop the idea that this loan says anything about Saliba’s future, and we need to take seriously the reality that it is VERY hard to make it as a young centre back at a big club.


The Premier League announced that we, the fans, can watch all the games this season. The games that aren’t shown on the normal channels can be purchased for £14.95. Wow, what a treat?!

This is a dreadful decision that reads like it has been made by a group of people that would be more likely to know the exact price of an AP Royal Oak, than that of a pint of milk.

The pricing structure makes so little sense on so many levels. Firstly, shouldn’t the league be looking to draw in new customers, versus hammering people you know will already pay £20 for a ticket (the captives)? The price point is so high, you immediately rule out casual fans from the party, that’s money only obsessives pay.

Also, is that sort of price point not a bit detached from humanity in an era of mass unemployment? There aren’t many places to find joy right now. Food, booze, and sport is where I get my kicks. Making football really expensive right now seems really unfair. It’s also counter-productive, because the thing with the internet, is if people think the price is too high, they simply find it for free. The music industry learned that the hard way, then Spotify reimagined its structure for the internet. I’m not sure why the Premier League thinks gouging fans is a smart move?

£5 would be fair. £7.50 would be pricey. £10 for me would be a monthly subscription. £14.95 is just a rip off… it is especially jarring when you consider clubs just dropped £1.2b on players. Between them, the couldn’t come to arrangement to calm down the pricetags and wages of players… so they just dumped the bill on the fans.

I speak out of both sides of my mouth because the reality is I love the signings and I’ll pay the price of the games… but as always, it’s a losing game to be a fan. Still, at least we can all be skint watching Thomas Partey beating the press.

Right, that’s me done, tune into our podcast if you like to hear things. Also, sign up to the newsletter by giving you e-mail to the the box on the right (desktop) or scroll to the bottom if you are on mobile.

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526 Responses to “Virgil van Dijk and William Saliba parallels are interesting”

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  1. WengerEagle


    Exactly, at the very least he needs to be a goalscorer or a creator for Auba/Laca. Our midfield is looking a lot better with Partey but it is still short of goals and creativity so there is a huge onus on Auba to once again carry the scoring burden, up to Lacazette, Pepe, Willian, Saka to ease that burden and contribute.

    Dream said that we need to score about 70 PL goals to have a chance at top 4 and I agree. United, Chelsea and Leicester were hitting around that number last season.

    Auba is good for 20, after that you can account another 10-15 to random scorers/defenders. Leaves a target of 35-40 PL goals to spread between Laca, Pepe, Willian, Saka, Martinelli. Doable but it won’t be easy. Need Pepe and Willian especially to step up as the latter two are kids.

  2. raptora

    Apparently showing proof that 2 of our loans of players that were/are considered talented and one that shortly after became a superstar is me being immune to sense and immature.

    It’s somehow stupid to assume that a player we value might not get the amount of games we’re hoping he will at another club although there are actual evidences in our own very club where it has worked exactly like it. But it’s stupid. And we start calling people names.

    Fair and square.

  3. WengerEagle


    Was West Brom mate, you’ve got Coq-Au-Vin on the brain clearly!

    Your point stands though, why I haven’t a fucking clue. Wenger absolutely despised Pulis to boot.

  4. raptora

    Re Toure he was probably the most complete midfield player I’ve watched in the EPL. Vieira this, Keane that, but Toure had it absolutely all. Such a shame we passed on him. A midfield of Yaya and Cesc would have dominated the league year in, year out.

  5. Champagne charlie


    Your views are immature:

    “Not good enough to get cup games is very, very, very, very disturbing. Or it might be the Arteta extra. Torreira, Guendouzi, Pepe, Martinelli have all got a taste of it.“

    Fully aware of the merits of a loan move (which is why we’re looking at one, and why there’s understanding of such a decision) but not only are you forwarding
    every angle it could fail, but you’re inserting your own claims about Arteta being a talent killer et al like it’s a natural assumption to make – which it quite clearly isn’t at all.

  6. Rich

    Whether Saliba has been a good investment or not?

    Was never going to be decided in year 1.

    A year in the championship makes a lot of sense, providing that we choose a club where he plays, with a manager who plays out from the back, and if at all possible, we’d keep him in the London, where he can settle into his environment.

    The idea we were going to pair a 19 + 22yr old centre half’s, with less than 100 senior appearances between them was utterly insane,

    I’m confident Saliba will come good, providing he settles in the country, and we can get him tied down on his next contract.

    We’ve got 3 centre half’s out of contract next summer, it’s good succession planning, you don’t always get an instant return on your investment.

    We may have to renew Saliba’s contract and send him out on loan again next season, but at just 20 years of age, we’d still be nowhere near panic stations, or anywhere near the point of drawing a definitive judgment.

    Fans never seem to learn, don’t write off players under 24, players with less than 100 senior starts, or players coming from a different league in their first season.

  7. CaliGooner

    Raptora is on here acting like Saliba is a family member. Either he will get his chance to prove himself or he will end up back in France. I do think he will end up getting games and be just fine. He had a big injury last season and didn’t get a lot of games. Also still just 19 so he will have plenty of chances when mustafi, Luiz and sokratis are gone next season.

  8. WengerEagle

    Just looking at Germany tonight and they’re unrecognisable from their 2014 World Cup winning side. Only Neuer and Kroos have survived.

    Lahm- Retired.
    Howedes- Retired.
    Hummels- Banished nearly 2 years ago from NT by Loew
    Boateng- Banished from NT by Loew
    Khedira- Permacrock years past his best.
    Schweinsteiger- Retired.
    Muller- Banished from NT side by Loew
    Ozil- Semi-Retired for 2+ years now. Corpse of the player he was 6 years ago.
    Klose- Retired.

    6 years is long time in football years.

  9. raptora

    So sad when you think about the times we were 1 top player away of winning the league. In Yaya’s case it’s a player that easily wins you more than 10 points a season, compared to playing as you said a Flamini, a Song, a Coquelin, a crooked Diaby. Could have won 2-3 EPL titles in the years when we were playing top class football but we were short of quality in defence and midfield.

  10. raptora

    Don’t forget their Golden boy Mario Götze. Last time he played for them was like 4 years ago and is now PSV Eindhoven’s new signing. Aged 28, and on a downward spiral you cannot think of the similarities between him and Ozil. Then you read he is the 2nd most expensive transfer for a German player ever, behind guess who – yes, Ozil, and the resemblance becomes striking.

  11. Luteo Guenreira

    “Revert to type, when you can’t win on the argument, smear, insult, belittle people you disagree.”

    Val I was never having an argument with you, I would never bother, it’d be like trying to talk to a farm hen. You can’t understand my English, I can’t understand your clucking, what’s the point then? So I’ve not resorted to anything. I’ve actually been belittling you right from the start.

    ”I can spot favouritism.“

    Oh really, you’re reading minds now is it? This is your problem. You assume way too often that you understand how other people (namely football managers and executives) think when you’re actually fucking clueless. You just read a report here and hear a rumour there, then you decide you’ve somehow pieced it all together into some “truth” that the rest are not privy to. You obviously think you’re clever for it, but really it’s just self-indulgent bullshit.

  12. WengerEagle


    Sad isn’t it? I still remember when there was a legitimate comparison to be made between Hazard and Gotze with Gotze arguably looking the better prospect in 2011. Bayer Leverkusen’s manager has come out and said that the club didn’t even want him despite Gotze being keen. He’s 28 ffs, what happened? Heard much of it was physical and to do with a metabolic condition he has leading him susceptible to weight gain.

    These two and Isco were supposed to dominate and join football’s elite, only quite happened for one of them in Hazard although Isco has played a part in Real’s CL successes. Isco was as close a resemblance as I’ve seen to Iniesta. Shame he’s gone off the boil at Real, maybe he needs to take the plunge like James to rejuvenate his career.

    Speaking of German National Team, another WC member in 2014 in Andre Schurrle has already retired age 29.

  13. London gunner


    Hazards been wank for real madrid. Hazard has always been overrated never been on the level of neymar robben or peak bale even.

    Never does get a crazy amount of goals and isn’t a clutch player in big games like drogba was for chelsea.

    I think an argument can be made sterling is better (i use sterling as they have very similar playing styles)

  14. TR7

    ‘Hazards been wank for real madrid. Hazard has always been overrated never been on the level of neymar robben or peak bale even.’

    Well, Neymar is highly overrated too :P.

    He’s like Andy Murray of football, put in the bracket of big 4 even though only 3 players were/are real big.

  15. raptora

    Even mentioning Andy Murray turns my stomach. I hated the sad muppet with passion. Always pissed off at something, would fake injuries, would randomly start yelling at his box swearing loud, smashing his racket was a an ordinary thing. Everything about him was negative, including his game.

  16. Rich

    James Wood

    Outside of Adams name other consistent teenage centre half’s at the top level in the English top flight in the last 33 years?
    Terry was 21 when he broke into the Chelsea first team, after an initial loan at Nottingham Forest.

    But I can’t think of any who’ve come in and hit the ground running, outside those two.

    Young players confidence is fragile, a player like Luiz who’s legs are gone, will make mistakes, but he has the experience to brush off those mistakes.

    Damaging a 19yr olds confidence, is an entirely different thing.

    Allowing him a period at a lower level, in a less pressurised environment is common sense.

    Particularly as we’re also blooding in Gabriel this season, who’ll likely at some point makes some mistakes, and need a period out of the pressure cooker.

  17. Marc


    I rarely place bets but I’m really tempted to stick some money on Biden winning but not making it to Inauguration – guy really looks like he’s on his last legs.

  18. raptora

    Another German WC winner.

    One of our own – Mustafi.
    He claimed a starting spot until he got injured and the tournament was over for him.
    Kind of sad that Loew didn’t even include him in the WC 2018 cause of his bad games for us.
    Truth be told, Mustafi was a talented player and could have had a successful career in a bunch of other teams. Maybe Spain, maybe Italy, maybe Germany. That we’ve been and still are kinda clueless in defence did not help him, neither the fast pace of English football.
    Another failed potential of what was a top 2014 WC winners team.

  19. TR7


    Trump was nailed on to win the presidential election once again before the Chinese virus created mayhem all around the world including in the USA. He is not in a strong position anymore but luckily for him Biden just like crooked Hillary is a weak candidate. It will be close contest. I will be ridiculed for this perhaps but I hope Trump wins again.

  20. Graham62


    Murray is Scottish.

    They don’t fake injuries. He was a fighter.

    In an era with Federer, Rafa, and Djokovic, he put up an admirable showing.

    Doesn’t get the credit he deserves.

  21. Graham62


    Name me one time Murray faked an injury?

    By the way, I’ve also had a hip replacement. Have you?

    Can tell you this, Andy Murray would have been suffering for several years before he had his operation.

  22. raptora

    I would not agree that Championship games are “less pressurised environment”. Teams play like it’s’ their last game. It’s really intense and he’ll have to jump a lot, tackle a lot. Europa games would have been the best way to settle and gain confidence plus get used to London, England, the training ground, the everyday life. If the loan is to Brentford being a London club will be of massive help so if he is given a chance to prove himself next season, he won’t have to change his habits much.

  23. Pedro

    TR7, he wasn’t nailed on before COVID and Joe Biden is nothing like Hillary, hence his consistent run in the polls since January. It is far more likely to be a Biden blowout than ‘close.’ You should be ridiculed for wanting the worst President in living memory to win, what could you possibly like about a man who suggested ingesting bleach as a cure for a disease? A man who courts white supremacists? A tax cheat? A cager of kids?

  24. raptora

    Oshit Graham is a Murray fan.

    His style was extremely taxing on his body. Imagine taking a timeout for a supposed injury, then proceeding to play better than before cause he actually used it to take a breather, rest and refocus, also disbalance the opponent’s game.

    You are the one who was talking about the dirty tactics in tennis but apparently you’ve turned a blind eye to your favorite Murray.

    I enjoyed Henman and Rusedski. Both likeable, honest players. Cool playstyle too. Murray not at all. I was also a fan of the other Andy at the time, Roddick. He succeeded in other fields of life more than in Tennis – marrying Brooklyn Decker.

  25. Rich

    Anyone writing off Trump is naive, this day 4 years ago according to the polls, Clinton had a 14 point lead nationally.

    Trump has a huge base, and there’s a huge section of people who absolutely don’t want to vote for Trump, but faced with the option of Trump or Biden, they’ll reluctantly vote Trump.

    Forget the national polls, Trump is now leading in Florida, and in key swing states, the margins are well within the margins for error.

    My prediction is Trump will win on the day, but once the postal votes are counted, the democrats will sneak it.

    At which point the’ll be anarchy on the streets, with very legitimate concerns of the democrats rigging the election,

  26. raptora

    “Obviously you have a limited knowledge of the sport”

    Okay mister know-it-all. Why do people decide to become personal and slate people for their opinion. “Cause your opinion is shit” well write it on a paper and wipe your ass with it. Weird you have to drop low in order to prove a point.

  27. Marc

    TR7 & Pedro

    It’s looking like a Biden win but then it was looking like a Clinton win in 2016.

    My thing is how out of a population of circa 330 million are Trump – 70 odd and a nutjob and Biden – 79 and looking like he’s ready to walk towards the light the best two candidates America could come up with?

  28. Pedro

    Rich, it isn’t the same as 4 years ago. It is totally different and on almost every level, it is worse for Trump. He knows it as well and so does his party.

  29. London gunner

    I’m a left wing type of guy or more like left centrist always vote for Labour and would have voted for Obama.

    But I hope trump wins just because I cant stand the identity politics of the left especially in America.

    This whole woke playing to the crowd smug fest is sickening. Hate the sjws and seeing trump win would be hilarious.

    Also china is a dystopia nightmare and trump seems to be the only one to stand against them

  30. Pedro

    Marc, Biden is perfectly boring, normal… and principled.

    He is the exact centrist to transition America back to normality and reshape the system so it never gets this close to authoritarianism again.

    Hillary was as despised as Trump… then that e-mail scandal flipped undecideds to him. There aren’t many undecideds this time. Now everyone knows what Trump is all about. Women have flipped massively. Independents are heavily for Biden.

    ‘Trump has a chance’ is the biggest non-comment going… but reality is, the numbers are rock solid, they have been this whole race, and they are getting wider.

  31. Marc


    I don’t have a preference but you really want to be careful tempting fate on Trump, to say it’s not like 2016 – no the World’s an even more fucked up place.

    I didn’t think Trump had a chance in 2016 and Biden’s just as weak a candidate as Clinton was.

    Fuck knows what will happen but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Rich’s prediction happen.

  32. Pedro

    London, real logical to want the guy trying to kill democracy to win because you don’t like rainbow laces. My word.

  33. Rich


    Obama + Biden’s record on caging kids is much worse than Trump’s, you might want to do some research.

    Look into Hunter Biden’s payments from Russian billionaires.

    Biden’s own history of racism.

    The Russia hoax from the media and the left, around Trump, Grimes, Banks, Leave.EU and Cambridge analitica, all proven to be completely fabricated and unfounded allegations

    We had the same in 2016 with Clinton and Remain, the MSM are so trapped within their own echo chamber, they refused to even consider the fact that there’s a silent majority who don’t think the way they do.

    Get out of metropolitan areas, and you’ll find a different reality.

    It’s the reason why Trump happened, Brexit happened, Boris won an 80 seat majority, and why you’d be crazy to rule out another Republican victory

  34. Marc


    You’re living in ground zero so obviously have a better feel for it but for fucks sake Biden’s almost 80 and people are talking about giving him about the most stressful job in the World?

  35. Pedro

    Marc, I live here, travel all over the country, it is VERY different this time. I thought he’d win the last go around, especially after BREXIT went down. I really don’t think it’ll go that way this time, the incompetency has been breathtaking and everyone has felt the effects of it. The mask thing last week will go down as an iconic moment. Breathtakingly bad.

    Also worth remembering, voting has started.

  36. Pedro

    Totally agree Marc, it’s pretty bad. Biden isn’t about being the best candidate, he’s the safest though. It’s the recognition and lack of scandal that made him appealing. America just needs to get this election out the way.

    My hope is that after this election, we return to boring politics. No more populists or reality TV stars. Just good politicians, with principles, and good ideas.

  37. Marc


    I will laugh my arse off if Trump wins again!

    The scary thing is if what Rich said happens – Trump wins on the day but we then see the postal vote change the result a couple of days later.

    I’m really beginning to wonder just fucked up the world can get.

  38. Pedro

    London, US trade deficit with China is biggest its been since 2006. America’s standing in the world has never been lower. I do not know where you read your news, but you need an upgrade.

  39. Marc


    ” Just good politicians, with principles, and good ideas.”

    I think that’s enough booze for you tonight!

    You need to listen to the lyrics of the Luhrmann song Wear Sunscreen.

  40. raptora

    Graham to answer your question:

    “It’s difficult when you play against someone on the court like he is not well or injured,” Tommy Haas told Germany’s Sport1 television. “I find no one does this better than Murray. Sometimes he looks like he can barely move, then comes the trainer and he moves like a cat. I believe everyone knows this. People talk about it in the locker room. Maybe he would like to take some pressure off himself. He tells himself, ‘Maybe I have a niggle or a problem, I’m not feeling too well but I’m going to try it anyway.’ But he is such a talented player that he does not need to.”

    Can’t believe earlier you even mentioned injury timeouts and bouncing the ball 40 times before his serve. You name Djoko, obviously someone you dislike, but apparently the Scott gets a free pass.

    Expected from someone who said double handed??? backhand (two-handed is the correct term) is against the rules or unfair advantage.

  41. Carts


    “My hope is that after this election, we return to boring politics. No more populists or reality TV stars. Just good politicians, with principles, and good ideas.”

    I’ve got a lot of time for you, P, but this ain’t it, chief.

    Not even close.

  42. Rich


    Respectfully I think you’re underplaying the effects of the Marxist rioting in democrat run states.

    Rational people will have watched while democrats sat idle, while anarchists ran mob rule.

    And will have simply come to the conclusion, f*ck that, Trump is a tw*t, but under no circumstance do I want that coming to a City near me,

    You’re seeing in LA and NYC, the money is leaving, people are getting the hell out of dodge.

    Same with London, if they don’t get hold of the crime epidemic? The wealth creators will up sticks, taking their jobs and their money with them, leaving noting but a cess pit of crime in their wake

  43. Pedro

    Rich, people aren’t stupid… they understand that blaming democrats for riots when they aren’t in power doesn’t work. If the streets are burning, only one person is to blame, and polls overwhelmingly show that.

    … and just to correct you, people aren’t leaving NYC because of crime. I live here. I walk around the city most days. It is perfectly pleasant. People are leaving because of covid. New York is shit if you can’t got to bars and eat out, so they’ve all gone to second homes.

  44. Dissenter

    Marc is one off this closet Trump supporters.
    He won’t come out in the open because even he is embarrassed bye the sheer buffoonery of his existence.

    To the nice fella who stated that Biden’s victory will be the beginning of America’s decline
    Where have you been this last four years as the US spurned it’s allies and embraced it’s natural enemies?
    The US is on the wrong side of the global response to covid-19, has pulled out of WHO and won’t even contribute towards a vaccine for poorer countries.
    In any case the real American decline started with the Iraq war in 2002. It’s been downhill since then, I fear it’s irreversible and all the aircraft carrier groups can’t reverse it.

  45. Rich


    We’ll likely not know who’s won until 7 days after the election.

    When you look at how open to fraud the voting system is, all we can hope for is an outright winner.

    I’m sticking with Trump on the day, Democrats sneaking it, once postal voting is counted.

    Then anarchy.

    The problem with people like Pedro, is they’re so entrapped in their own echo chamber, of people who think like they do, watch the same tv stations, read the same newspapers, that they’ve not even considered this time they might be wrong,,,,

    Yet again…..

  46. Jamie

    Nobody’s leaving London either.

    Property prices in London have risen above inflation over the last year. They’ve even risen since the beginning of lockdown.

    If there was an exodus, prices would go down not up.

  47. Pedro

    Rich, I’ve been to 38 states over the last 5 years, how many have you been to?

    I read right, left, and centrist pubs (high quality). I live in America.

    While you are out here talking about near non-existent election fraud and telling me why fellow new yorkers are moving out.

    I’m not sure I would play the ‘people like you’ card with me on this subject.

  48. Pedro

    Jamie, great point. One of my pals called me and said I should sell my flat because people are paying 10-15% more to get into new accomodation before the stamp duty goes up… you can’t sell your place quick enough.

  49. Rich


    If you live in NYC? Look at the crime rates, they’re skyrocketing.

    You can’t blame republicans for what happens in democrat run states, the reality is, democrats have sat idle, handicapped the police, and allowed a bunch of cultural Marxists to run riot.

    Intriguingly as soon as the rioting started effecting Biden negatively in the polls, the rioting stopped.

  50. Dissenter

    “When you look at how open to fraud the voting system is, all we can hope for is an outright winner.”

    Honestly, where do you live?
    I ask because you’re so damn ignorant of how mail-in vote works in the states. It’s almost impossible to perpetuate it because there are so many levels of security to overcome.The rate of vote nullification when done by mail is very high because everything has to be crossed to a ‘t’ for the vote to get counted. It is no more open to fraud than voting in person.
    It seems you’re getting your news right from TRump’s mouth piece. He wont tell you that he too have been voting in the mail in Florida.

  51. Dissenter

    Rich is one of those people living in the alternate universe of infowars and every damn lying media that’s possible.

  52. WengerEagle

    ‘New York is shit if you can’t got to bars and eat out, so they’ve all gone to second homes.’

    Same can be applied to any major city really. Interesting isn’t it, when no businesses are open major cities morph into uncomfortable, claustrophobic and overcrowded wasteland full of disgruntled inhabitants.

  53. Marc


    I don’t support either candidate in the US election – my strongest opinion is what happened to credible candidates?

    Obama was meh, W Bush was poor, Clinton was fucking awful – the last time you guys had a President who wasn’t piss poor was Bush Senior and he didn’t exactly light the world up.

    Nixon was a crook but was twice the man and politician compared to modern times.

  54. Carts

    Politics/politicians have proven to be anything but with principled, and with good idea.

    It’s all hot air, for the most part; and self-preservation.

    But I get why you’d think Biden usurping Trump does more good than bad, however, let’s realise that the bar is on the floor.

  55. Pedro

    Rich, the country botched the response to the pandemic and we have a president fanning racial divisions. America sees that. Also not sure that people in Michigan are going to vote based on what goes on in New York. Not how it works generally.

  56. Rich


    House prices are easy to explain.

    It’s basic economics, supply and demand.

    If you’re population is going up by 500,000 p/a, and interest rates are at an all time low, along with the stamp duty freeze?

    Then you have the demand, which increases house prices, it’s unsustainable longer term, because house prices have already been pushed out of reach of the working and much of the middle class, particularly in heavily populated cities.

    There’s also been a surge in people from Hong Kong fleeing, and setting up camp here in the UK, highly entrepreneurial Hong Kongers are exactly the type of immigration we want though.

  57. Guns of SF

    Pedro, nice posts in the last 30 mins.
    spot on…

    Dump is on his last legs. Landslide Biden victory. I am also more concerned about the senate race, which in some states is 50 50 right now. Dems can win a landslide potentially like the Republicans did in 2016.

    I agree, the doom scrolling I do on my phone nightly is too much . Trump has impacted the US in the worst way I have ever seen. A spiraling narcissist who stands outside the white house window like Musollni trying to soak it all in before the inevitable loss.

    I also cannot wait for all the pending law suits to finally go through once he leaves office. the POS needs to see the inside of a prison cell. The height of corruption and chaos it has caused is beyond the pale.

    I fail to see what anyone in their right mind would vote for Trump. It is baffling.

    I cannot wait for Nov 3. I am sending my mail in ballot today…

  58. Pedro

    WE, New York particularly bad because everything is so tightly packed… at least you have beer gardens in London.

    I spent two weeks in Austin… everything is so much better there.

  59. Dissenter

    What do you mean by credible candidate?
    Biden is no less credible that the UK prime minister who’s a clown now trying to find redemption.
    It may not have occurred to you but peopler just want a regular human being to lead them , one that they can relate to with his flaws and all.
    It’s not a reality TV show, it’s an election to elect a president.

    What do you mean by credibility?
    Are you confusing this with likability?

  60. Pedro

    Rich, people don’t buy houses in London then run for the hills like you said. There’d be no demand based on your world view, which I think has been influenced by your own echo chamber.

  61. raptora

    Weagle: “when no businesses are open major cities morph into uncomfortable, claustrophobic and overcrowded wasteland full of disgruntled inhabitants”

    So well said.
    It’s valid regardless of what’s open and what’s not. Bars and restaurants just add a bit of much needed happiness to a population usually on the edge.

  62. Marc

    The big question is what happens if Trump refuses to accept the outcome if if wins on the day but the postal vote sends it the other way.

    Are there historical precedents that will start a process? Or are we talking about an effective Military Coup in the US to remove him?

  63. Dissenter

    Guns if SF
    Exactly, I want the most boring person to be president. I want a geriatric who’s not ashamed to be geriatric to be president.
    I’m sick and tired of a narcissistic man child tweeting to win every damn news cycle. I want the government out my life.

  64. Pedro

    Marc, in America, it doesn’t really matter what he accepts and doesn’t accept. If he loses, he’ll be gone in Jan. There’s no saving him. He doesn’t have a popular mandate to go full-on dictator.

  65. Guns of SF


    NO need to worry. A landslide defeat will render all this theories null.

    Landslide defeat coming for Trump.

    As Sid says,

    Im telling you this for free!

  66. Tom

    “Trump was nailed on to win the presidential election once again before the Chinese virus created mayhem all around the world including in the USA. He is not in a strong position anymore but luckily for him Biden just like crooked Hillary is a weak candidate. It will be close contest. I will be ridiculed for this perhaps but I hope Trump wins again.“
    You should be ridiculed but not for the reasons you think.
    I know plenty of people who will vote for him again for the same reasons they did four years ago: tax cuts , tax cuts, and tax cuts.
    But at least thankfully none of them pretended it was about anything else other than their bottom line in order to make themselves look better.
    Crooked Hilary was a clever catch phrase four years ago but anyone with a pair of functioning eyeballs and half a brain not yet fried by the Fox News echo chamber should know Trump is TEN TIMES the crook Hilary was.

    Also the whole Biden is a weak candidate and that’s why some will vote for Trump argument is just another in long line of excuses Trump supporters have been using to justify their position in front of their more progressive friends.

    Don’t kid yourself, there isn’t a candidate Democrats could’ve put forth to persuade anyone on the fence to abandon Trump if they haven’t already after the shit show presidency it’s been.

  67. Dissenter

    “The big question is what happens if Trump refuses to accept the outcome if if wins on the day but the postal vote sends it the other way.”

    Oh he will, I have zero doubts that he will.
    At the end of the day, America trumps Trump. He will see no meaningful human being stand behind him when he loses, maybe the crazies will stick by him.

  68. Marc


    I mean leaders with morals and gravitas. From an outside view of America none of the recent candidates come close to Reagan, Nixon, LBJ, Kennedy etc etc. The crazy thing is so many great leaders carried fundamental flaws.

    It does seem to be something that’s not solely an American problem.

  69. Pedro

    Tom, I think there were candidates that could have made the race spicier… I was worried America would counter hard right with hard left. Not sure how that would have played out. Defund the police would have been an awful battle cry.

  70. London gunner


    WHO is a corrupt organisation that serves the overloads china.

    Trump pulling out was for the best. Also its a fact nato have been screwing over America for a long time so it makes sense for him to threaten to leave.

    Trump before corona created the strongest economy and even during this crisis has managed a major middle Eastern peace treaty also unlike his predecessors managed to completely avoid pointless foreign wars.

    By nearly all account he has been a huge success and this is coming from a leftwing guy who votes for Labour.

  71. Guns of SF

    My man was Bernie Sanders, but Biden gets my vote. Boring Biden…. not stellar but as Pedro said, someone to bring the country back to stable for now. Someone willing to take on the Pandemic first and foremost as he understands that is impacting all aspects of life.

  72. Marc


    Again I’ll make clear I’m watching from the outside but ” it doesn’t really matter what he accepts and doesn’t accept. If he loses, he’ll be gone in Jan.” when you look at some of the stories about how W Bush “won” with major issues on voting in (I think it was) Florida etc I’m not so sure it’s so clean cut.

  73. Pedro

    Marc, there’s a book called Leadership In Crisis by Doris Kearns. Gives a great overview of Teddy, LBJ, FDR and Lincoln. Really worth your time if you like American history.

  74. Dissenter

    “Obama was meh, W Bush was poor, Clinton was fucking awful – the last time you guys had a President who wasn’t piss poor was Bush Senior and he didn’t exactly light the world up.”

    Now I know you’re conflating credibility with like-ability from a UK perspective.

  75. Marc


    ” Contesting is different to refusing to leave office.”

    This is Trump we’re talking about – nothing he does would surprise me.

  76. Guns of SF

    You kinda sound like a conservative to me. Sorry but anyone who wants Trump to win, cannot be a liberal or lefty in my opinion.
    China or Nato or WHO, citizens are suffering due to Trump.

    Conservatives are voting against him in numbers.
    mark my words, landslide defeat

  77. Marc


    No it’s not likability – it’s a view from across the Atlantic on what these guy’s did or didn’t do, domestic performance is not something I can give a view on as I’m not there or wasn’t there to comment on it.

  78. Pedro

    Guns, I really struggle with the idea that Trump is a conservative. He has no ideology. He subsidizes farmers, put tariffs on countries, doesn’t believe in globalisation, and he blew up the deficit

  79. Marc

    “Just like how they presendtial candidates dropped out and prevented the people’s choice bernie sanders from winning.”

    The day the US elects a proper socialist is the day I say something nice about Pedro.

    Ain’t never gonna happen

  80. Luteo Guenreira

    I’ve lived in a lot of places, different countries, currently living in Los Angeles. Rich needs to stop relying on the computer to form his world view and go out and meet some real people. Maybe in a diaspora of colours even.

    He seriously could not be more wrong about what it’s like here. But then again there’s plenty of Americans who actually live here and are equally clueless, so it’s not too surprising I guess. It’s what still gives Trump a chance.

    In 2016 I think America felt like they couldn’t slide that far backwards to electing Trump after Obama was there for 8 years. America was wrong. Think I read if even half the black/minority voters that voted for Obama and then didn’t bother to vote at all in 2016 showed up to vote, Biden will easily carry states like Michigan and Pennsylvania. You have to expect a much better turnout this time.

  81. Guns of SF

    Trump is only a figurehead,
    McConnell, Graham and others are really running the show…

    Trump was a democrat at one point.

    Trump is about trump… $

    despise him, disgusting individual.

  82. London gunner

    Guns of SF

    I am just utterly sick of nany Pelosi and the Biden gang. I think they keep black people and people of colour in a weakned position in order to keep them malleable for votes.

    Personally I was pretty devastated when bernie lost i think he could have been the next fdr and really changed America and even the world for the better.

  83. Dissenter

    -WHO is a corrupt organisation that serves the overloads china. FALSE
    WHO didn’t hide anything. Trumop knew everything they knew in January and February 2020.
    -.Trump pulling out was for the best. FALSE
    You don’t pull the fire truck out of the fire emergency while the fire is still burning. Leaving in a huff left the stage to China to control an organization that was created and financed by America,.
    -NATO is the best means of American reach to maintain the balance of power. Trump has frayed there bonds and other countries tries are right to start seeking other alliances.
    -Trump before corona created the strongest economy FALSE
    Obama’s economy created more jobs, Clinton’s economy created ore jobs that any president in the last 28 years.
    -and even during this crisis has managed a major middle Eastern peace treaty.
    Bilateral relationships between isreal and UAE/Bahrain hardly qualifies as major peace deals.

    Honestly I wish you guys can just have this loud mouthed babbling man who steals the achievements of others for himself. His mother was from Scotland, maybe he can reactivate some type of UK citizenship and he can have a political existence on your side of the pond.

    I have voted for republican and democrats all; my life. I dislike both sides. Trump is an anathema, a blotch the will be scrubbed away by the sands of history.

  84. London gunner

    London, Biden has Kamala as his VP. She’s a black woman,

    I got a black mate so I cant be racist card.

    Democrats are self serving shits who don’t give a damn about the plight of black people they just pretend to do to get votes. Its why they went for a female black woman its completely see through.

    As a person of colour and who is on the left im sickened by what the left has become. Its so fake and dishonest.

  85. Graham62


    Correct, I don’t particularly like Djokovic.

    As for Murray, he wouldn’t even get into my top 500 favourite players of all time and I’m going back to the late sixties.

    Haas was, unfortunately, derailed by injuries and, imo, would have won GS if this had not been the case.

    Who said the DHB/ two-handed backhand, was against the rules?

  86. Guns of SF

    I would not be surprised if Trump and family up and leave the us for another country to avoid prosecution to the numerous lawsuits against them. Some civil and some criminal. Maybe move to Swiss for asylum?

    Kushner looks like the anti christ to me. Damien.

    Bernie was my guy… just ahead of his time… US still not ready for a Bernie. Maybe some day

  87. Dissenter

    ” I am just utterly sick of nany Pelosi and the Biden gang. I think they keep black people and people of colour in a weakned position in order to keep them malleable for votes.”

    For a Labour Party voter, you sure have your ears fastened securely on right wing talking points.
    Black people know the party that works super hard to minimize their voting rights.
    Your comment assumes that people can’t think for themselves because Nancy Pelosi the boogie woman has them in a trance.
    It’s the same as evangelical votes voting for Republicans because they know that party has “pro-life” issues central to it’s ,mission. Black voters massively support the Democrats because they have a massive say in what goes on in the party through the primary system.

  88. Luteo Guenreira


    I really can’t believe how the protests are being reported across the globe. I get it from my in-laws too. Meanwhile there are right-wing domestic terrorists planning the armed kidnapping of a liberal female governor in order to put her on trial themselves for “treason” (which is a capital offense) because she mandated they all need to wear face masks. Yes of course it’s those crazy liberals that are the real danger though.

  89. Tom

    “Marc, in America, it doesn’t really matter what he accepts and doesn’t accept. If he loses, he’ll be gone in Jan. There’s no saving him. He doesn’t have a popular mandate to go full-on dictator.“

    Pedro , yes technically speaking, but also….. not really.
    If the republicans can create enough doubt about voting irregularities , and judging just from the few pro Trump posters here you know it will be easy to do, the Republican state legislatures can say we don’t think the results are accurate , so here are our slate of electors we think properly reflect results of our state.
    Normally the popular vote winner gets the state’s electors who cast their vote accordingly, but if the Republican state legislators in , say, Florida, or five other key states in which they control both chambers and governorship, decide they will send their own electors to vote for Trump.
    Democrats would obviously challenge and the whole thing would end up in courts , 40% of which has been appointed by Trump.
    The odds of this thing going all the way tho the Supreme Court, unless there’s a landslide Biden victory, are quite real.

  90. Luteo Guenreira


    You do know it’s Trump’s White House that manages that page? Do you honestly believe that’s a reliable source that is nuanced and objective? You might as well get all your facts from Trump’s twitter at that rate.

  91. Pedro

    Luteo, I know, my dad keeps asking if I’m safe… I’m like, why?

    ‘We heard it’s like a warzone out there’

    Only thing that really changed in NYC is the homeless problem is out of control

  92. Rich


    There’s a demand for housing, providing you have the population to fill that demand, along with easily available finance.

    Whether that be through individual sales, or as rental investments.

    Even if the rental yields are low, the value comes from the consistent pressure of the demand, which is fuelled by immigration.

    For 50 years after the Second World War, immigration ran at roughly 40,000 p/a, and house prices used to double every 10-12 years.

    Blair then opened the borders, immigration went from 40,000 up to over 300,000 p/a

    He then made it easier to get a zero% deposit mortgage, than a mobile phone, house prices then tripled in some areas in under 5 years, where they’d previously been consistent decade on decade for 50 years.

    Everyone investing in housing was coining it, collecting capital from buy to let mortgages, but in doing so, he pushed house prices out of reach of much of the working class.

    It’s the same with wages, if you have an oversupply of unskilled labor and trades people? It forces down the prices people can charge for their labor, it makes their working conditions worse, and gives no incentive for British business to invest in the British work force.

    You’ll always have minimum wage jobs, otherwise those jobs will go abroad, but if you squeeze the labour market in the areas of trades? Wages will rise.

    If you manage the rate of change, and where that change occurs? You can manage house prices, and ensure they home ownership is within the grasp of the working class.

    The same people who want mass uncontrolled immigration, are the same ones who don’t want you to build anywhere, they then complain about declining living conditions.

    I just don’t believe that when you condense a large group of people into a small area, that people’s living conditions improve, in fact all the evidence pints to the contrary

  93. Pedro

    Tom, I think the odds are far higher of this being a massive blowout.

    Most likely outcome is Trump clogs the courts on the day so places can’t announce, but that’ll be very bad for Rs imo.

  94. Dissenter

    You just proved my point
    Your source is a ,link on the Truman White House touting his achievements really.
    US economy under the last 10 presidents before Trump

    US economy under the last three presidents; Trump, Obama and GW Bush

    He took over is economy at 4.9% from Obama, that’s like getting 500 million from his dad and wasting it all.

  95. London gunner


    I mainly read guardian and the economist both of which are very anti trump.

    However I make up my own mind. I think there are people who control the media and therefore the narrative.

    I think yes trump is pig headed stubborn obnoxious loud mouth but I also think he is a damn site better than most Democrats who would turn America into antifa lead lynch mob where cancel culture rules all and freedom of speech is utterly eroded.

    I am left wing economically and culturally but the left wing is no longer about freedom and letting people live how they want (unless it harms someone else.)

    Now the left wing has become an orwelian nightmare which is the antithesis of liberalism and freedom.

    I also think a lot of the evil ascribed to trump is just exactly what the Democrats have also done.

    For instance Obama started caging kids yet people conveniently forget this.

  96. Pedro

    Rich, I understand property.

    You said people were fleeing London, LA and NYC because of crime.

    We said that was wrong.

    One of the points was the property market is booming in London. Which runs counter to your point.Unless you think people actively seek out crime hotspots

  97. Guns of SF

    I hope there is a move to abolish the electoral college.
    The american voting system for president is utter garbage.
    Should be one person , one vote. – popular vote wins

    IF Dems take the senate I would love to see this being pushed through. 2/3 need to vote if I am not mistaken,

    Archaic system

  98. Dissenter

    I just wonder how a labor party voting person can be so Trump-loving.
    Your labor party will be an extreme left wing party if it’s dropped on the American landscape. there’s no way anyone like Corbin will lead a major political party in America.
    Even Bernie is to the right of Corbin on virtually every issue.

  99. Pedro

    Guns, they nearly did it in the 70s I think?

    Court-packing coming as well. Civil rights. Re-districting.

    Quite an important election.

  100. London gunner


    Proportional representation is better than winner takes all.

    This way you aren’t completely overseen by a party that is completely at odds with your beliefs and values

  101. Guns of SF

    Dems would need 66 senators for sure, to vote to abolish it.
    Hard to see that happening come to thing of it

    This entire 2/3 majority vote makes life really hard for the losers in the senate.
    Lazy fuckers…

    The real worker bees are in the house….

  102. Tom

    Pedro, of course there were better candidates than Biden but in a sane country with a knowledgeable electorate.
    Kamala Harris is twice the brain Biden ever was but by picking her for a VP , if he wins now , he practically ensured the Republicans will win four years from now on another Obama style whitelash.

  103. Dissenter

    I think the founding fathers put it in place for balance. It just force the candidate to focus on the center of the electorate.
    The electoral college system is no more annoying than Wyoming having two senators with it’s 580k residents, same as California with its 40 million residents.
    If there was no electoral college, the republican party will never win another presidential election in 100 years.

  104. Guns of SF

    Polls should also be open for a week, to give those who cannot vote by mail to vote. Voting should be open all weekend too. Some basic things to allow the freedom to vote for more people.

    Will eliminate long lines, and other republican voter suppression efforts.

    It just makes common sense…

  105. Pedro

    Tom, in this instance, the electorate got it exactly right.

    No chances taken. No scandal. No drama.

    The best way to beat Trump is boring and normal.

  106. Guns of SF

    f there was no electoral college, the republican party will never win another presidential election in 100 years.

    I’m fine with this! 🙂

  107. London gunner


    I would trade you any and all politicians in a heart beat for bernie. Guys a legend he talks the talk and walks the walk.

    He had great ideas and a concrete vision for the country.

    His ideas were not outlandish or impossible people just didn’t bother researching them in anyway but instead listened to the DNC hit pieces against him.

  108. Dissenter

    I think everyone has a RESPONSIBILITY to vote. We should make it accessible but no more than necessary.
    Maybe November 3rd should be a federal public holiday but that’s about it. No one should make it any easier for anyone. Just make access equal for all.

  109. Marc


    It’s once every 4 years (ours are 5 years max) I find it staggering that someone can’t get out and vote for something so important that happens so rarely. Postal voting should be limited to those who either can’t physically make it to a polling station or have really good genuine reasons they can’t.

  110. Guns of SF

    the day we can vote from our cell phones will really swing things…
    I hope some day the technology happens. Im in silicon valley and I am sure someone here can make an app within minutes to address this!

  111. Pedro

    London, if you have to go away and research a politicians content, it’s not good content.

    He didn’t excite people or grow his base the second time. That’s on him.

  112. Guns of SF


    Access yes. But its more than just access…. we need to remove obstacles to vote. I agree with the holiday, but why not keep the polls open for a week? what bad could happen?
    This allows those who cannot get out, due to work, etc , etc to have a chance to make it to the polls.
    Look at the laws in texas and michigan to allow voter suppression,

    Keeping polls open for a week will allow more to vote. OF course, if they want to, but I think one day is still too hard for many people.

    As I said, the phone app will cure a lot of these issues

  113. London gunner


    He didn’t have the establishment PR machine working for him. Selling/pushing his content.

    Instead he was fighting a battle on two front the corrupt the dnc with Biden and his kronies and the republican party.

    Also he certainly existed the younger demrographic so I think your statement is partially false.

  114. Rich


    People actively seek out home ownership.

    If your population is going up, quicker than you can build new homes?

    Then house prices will increase, if you reduce the demand? House prices will stagnate, or slightly decrease.

    Lots of big business are fleeing LA,, this is a fact.

    You seem convinced people will return to NYC post COVID, I think the same homeless problem that’s plagued LA, that is now plaguing NYC, along with the spiralling crime rates, won’t see the return of people you expect, let’s wait and see.

    If the wealth creators leave? Taking their jobs with them? There will be less demand for jobs in the City, because no one will have the wages to pay for houses, at which point the demand will reduce, and you’ll see a max exodus of the NYC, and if they don’t learn from those mistakes in London?

    Then expect the same outcome, rich people, and wealth creators won’t keep themselves and their families in high risk areas, they’ll take their money, and you’ll never see them again.

  115. Marc


    “As I said, the phone app will cure a lot of these issues”

    So fucking naive – what happens when a cell tower goes down? Or a network is hacked?

    Get off your lazy fat arse and go and put a cross on a bit of paper.

  116. Pedro

    London, Bernie absolutely crushed Biden for fundraising and still got spanked by him. MSM absolutely HATED Biden and did not want him to succeed. Bernie failed because he couldn’t get people to vote for him… that’s a flaw.