I can’t say I was expecting to come away from the Barcelona game with a win, so there’s no point in throwing my kale puffs at the laptop. It’s preseason, Emery appears to still be feeling out his starting 11, nothing matters until the Newcastle game.
We had a fairly positive first half. We took the lead from the usual suspect… Auba. He received a ball from Mesut and unleashed a devastating strike past the Barca second choice keeper. It really was a brutal strike from a man who looks at the absolute peak of his physical and technical powers.
There was a notable performance from Willock. He didn’t let the game overawe him. He works hard, he shows great composure for a 19-year-old and his ability to read play and turn the ball over fast is going to be a big asset moving into the new season. That goal-line clearance he made really was spectacular, absolutely ace concentration.
The same problems were still there, hanging around like those greasy pigeons that eat the Chinese food at the Camden stables. The issues are now so familiar my heart doesn’t skip a beat. We looked confused in defence, particularly in the second half. It doesn’t matter how you chop it up, AMN is not a right back, Chambers is never going to make it, and Mustafi will always, always let players get in behind him. I’m also not sure about our continued attempts to play out the back from way deep, especially when we’re relying on slow players that make lots of mistakes to move the ball forward.
We also have the same old issues up top. Mikhi has been a disaster signing. He’s lost the pace that stood him out, and now he looks like he’s lost interest. He gives the ball away far too often and he’s painfully casual about being average.
The kids are showing promise, but most of them are greener than a bowl of salad. The pace on offer gives us a different dimension. There are flashed is excellence. I just struggle to see Emery giving them a chance in such a high-pressure season. Martinelli, Saka and Reiss all look like they need another loan… but given the choice, I think I’d rather see them in our starting 11 over Iwobi or Mikhi.
The transfer gossip post-match is centred around Umtiti and Tierney. Both are better than what we have. Both were very robust players until last season. Both represent a huge risk. Raul is in a tough spot, his contacts game has its limits, he didn’t have a chief scout for 7 months, and now he’s backed into a corner. If he blows money on them and they’re good for 40 games, we have a very strong chance of Champions League. If things go wrong, on the basis of what we’ve seen in preseason, we really could be in for a bit of a nightmare defensively.
Still, quite exciting, wouldn’t you say? In January we were all shitting our pants that this summer was going to be about #AnnouncePerisic and #WelcomeEverBanega. I’d take your shoe over those two.
Let’s see if Raul can make some magic happen before Sunday!
Check out the first podcast of the season. Big thanks @TopicalStorm for bringing the GOOD chat. You can stream the below through Stitcher, Spotify and iTunes. x
1st
Deux
tr4phy
Fourth Place Trophy
Trofee
oh well
Not today old boy
Umtiti and tierney are risky but are risks we have to take. Defensively we will be a shambles without big name signings back there, cannot rely on the front three over a whole season.
I did like the look of Martinelli, Cabellos and Saka when they came on
Cabellos looks like a classy midfielder, if we can get him settled he will cause damage to other teams
AMN he just needs to develop in midfield but it does look like Willock is coming for his place
Raul has his work cut out in the next 4 days, does he gamble with Tierney and is there any other centre back after £80m Macquire we might find it difficult
i think Barca has 4 centrebacks now, i have a feeling they will not sell
I did like the look of Martinelli, Cabellos and Saka when they came on Cabellos looks like a classy midfielder, if we can get him settled he will cause damage to other teams AMN he just needs to develop in midfield but it does look like Willock is coming for his place Raul has his work cut out in the next 4 days, does he gamble with Tierney and is there any other centre back after £80m Macquire we might find it difficult i think Barca has 4 centrebacks now, i have a feeling they will not sell I thought… Read more »
Umtiti and tierney are risky but are risks we have to take.
Yep. Bout nails it. The alternative of sticking with what we have is unacceptable
but its good we lost yesterday in the way we did at least it will show RAUL and EDU we need defensive reinforcements now if we want to compete with the top teams in europe
yesterday did show a good attacking goal but 2 defensive errors and we could of beaten barca
I’d take Kim Kallstrom over Mustafi and Kos.
If I were Arsenal and Umtiti and the pikey are legitimate options, I’d roll the dice.
Joao Cancelo moving to City for 27.5m plus Danilo
In as much as we made some very good moves ourselves this window, a lot f very cheap defenders moved without us even trying.
If we change our entire roll call of defensive players at the club not one person will question it, yet that is the area we haven’t even touched.
RH
Exactly. There are loads of players out there that would instantly be an improvement over our current back line but we’ve blown a whole summer chasing fucking Tierney.
I’d take Cahill for nothing for starters.
Un
Please, don’t remind me of Elneny’s presence.
Our best midfield three should consist of Torriera/Ceballos/Ozil/Willock.
I’d like to see Iwobi moved to CM, I really want to see actual wingers on the wings, the difference/impact is so crystal clear.
It’s quite sad watching AMN do that shit to himself. He has the physical attributes and flair to make it to a decent level. I wish we’ve got our RB well sorted, I’d certainly take him above Guendouzi for a CM role.
We have played four games pre-season against major European Teams beatingBayern, drawing with Real Madrid [discounting penalties] and losing to Lyon and Barcelona. All four games have common denominators i.e. we scored first and then struggled to hang on. As has been the case for several seasons we struggle to keep a clean sheet. I appreciate that finding good defenders is not just a unique problem for Arsenal. There appears to be a dearth of genuine talent throughout Europe. However, the key difference between Arsenal and most of the other leading teams is that they are willing to spend money… Read more »
Part of the responsibilities of a football coach is to decide when to stop persisting with under-performers. Unai would do well to stop looking for ways to shoe horn Mikhi into the eleven. “I’d take Cahill for nothing for starters.” GOH everyone knows where i stand on Cahill, i don’t think handing a starting place to a 33 year old who was released by a rival for the top four places is forward thinking. Nor do i see how he is even better than Chambers at this point in his career. I am tired of watching us pick up old… Read more »
Pierre – Who cares if Ceballos doesn’t score a lot of goals. For years you wanted two holding midfielders that didn’t go into the box, and just sat there shielding the ball.
What happened, did Ramsey’s cameo in central midfield last season open your eyes to how beneficial runs from central midfield can be?
*shielding the defence
RH
I agree totally about Cahill…normally but. He is experienced, knows the league and could easily come in and do a job for us. Good in the air which we are vulnerable.
He’s free mate. I’d bag him on a year deal and then start going hard for other options. Going into the new season with what we have is suicide.
I can see that Ceballaos is going to face the wrath of Pierre all season ZZZZZZZZ
GOH maybe it’s a bit personal for me with respect to Cahill. A player i never liked even in his prime being brought in for “save” our defense at 33 just doesn’t sit well with me personally. He was considered only good enough for 2 appearances by Sarri last season now he will just waltz in here to start because he is free??
RH
You won’t like my next suggestion then.
Give Cahill the captaincy.
The No.4 shirt.
Highest paid player at club.
Statue.
Stand named after him.
Good?
Can’t even get my head round Pierre’s obsession with Ceballos. desperately trying to compare his deal with the Suarez deal.
Loved his quick feet to get past two Barca players last night and spread the ball to Saka. Lovely ball by Saka too. Except if Emery decides to play favorites which he shouldn’t, Iwobi must be fearing for his place. These youngsters have much more about their game than he does
“Give Cahill the captaincy.
The No.4 shirt.
Highest paid player at club.
Statue.
Stand named after him. Good?”
Make him a player manager, Name the club Cahill FC, make him the technical director and CEO…..build the club in his image
Unfortunately this season is already a write off. We will be lucky to finish 6th. We have conceded 51 goals 2 seasons in a row, and we have changed absolutely nothing about the defence. In fact, our defence is now worse. Bellerin in inured, Holding is just back from injury and will take a while to get up to speed, Koscielny wants out, Mustafi is done, completely done at this level. Kolasinac and AMN are absolute disasters. Monreal is getting older. There is absolutely no way we will see any defensive improvement, if anything we will concede more goals and… Read more »
Umtiti is exactly the type of player we need. We aren’t flush with funds so need to gamble on players like him. We signed Overmars with a dodgy knee and he became a legend. Kanu had a hole in his hart and he turned out okay. Van Persie had more injuries than I’ve had cooked dinners yet United gambled on him and he won them the league almost single handedly.
He’s proven at the top level both at domestic and international levels and is far better than anything we have.
“I honestly dont think Emery has a clue how to set up a defence, and this season is going to be an embarrassment at times.”
I think his idea of defensive player is to put more bodies in defensive zones, this would have helped if the bodies actually knew how to defend.
I fear we are going to be hopeless away from home again this season, playing within ourselves in desperate attempt to be defensively solid
Emiratestroller Idk what u are blabbering about. Our recruitment this summer has been very good and better than all the other of the top 6 teams. AMN showed so much promise in the first half only to completely make us all forget it in the second. The lack of a true leader is concerning. Had Liverpool conceded such a comical own VVD would be either eating the player’s ear out or encouraging him. All our players were just standing still heads down. The countless times our defenders gave away the ball in our own third is even more concerning. Only… Read more »
“Mustafi will always, always let players get in behind him”
That’s because he’s much too used to be fucked in the ass.
Old habits die hard…
#MustardiOUT
“Our recruitment this summer has been very good and better than all the other of the top 6 teams.” Erm, we have conceded 51 goals 2 seasons in a row, and we have exactly the same group of defenders as we had last season. We scored the 3rd most goals in the PL and spent £72m on a goalscoring winger. Meanwhile the 5 disasters (Koscielny, Mustafi, Maitland-Niles, Kolasinac and Xhaka) are all still here. Pretty much every goal we concede is from one of these idiots making a basic error. We are like someone who’s house burns down, takes the… Read more »
Do we have a defensive coach?
If there was some organization at the back it would help.
Emery is clueless
“We are like someone who’s house burns down, takes the insurance money and buys a second car with it.”
Hmmmm
We did need a winger or two Gambon, we really did. Same way we needed defenders. Although one can argue one need was more pressing than the other but. I just hope the extra year wait for Saliba is worth it.
Organization at the back is all well and good Spanish dave but games happen in real time. You can organize all you want but your defenders should have the ability to make split second decisions themselves. You weathered the storm at the Nou Camp and your right back casually passes the ball into his own net, how do you organize against that?
I thought Chambers did ok, not great, but steady.
Chambers couldnt get a game at Fulham as a CB
Hes going to be a disaster.
Hes short, slow and weak. Everything you dont want in a CB.
gambon:
” We are like someone who’s house burns down, takes the insurance money and buys a second car with it. ”
Absolute quality comment – couldn’t agree more
Chambers just soft and slow. Slow feet,slow on the turn, and without a single redeeming feature. He’s worse than Mustafi by quite a bit.
Gambon Raul and Edu are building for the future and not for this season. We have bought 4 players yet all with world class potential. We are still in for 2 more defenders. Last season we completely outscored our xG and we cant expect to do that every year. We lacked pace and crearuvity out wide and heavily relied on auba and laca. Cant do that every year. And we still have time to fix our defense. Hopefully 2 new faces come in before the window. This has been our best window in some time and we have time to… Read more »
Paulinho and Gambon would you be open to the idea of Cahill??
Not quite as brain dead as Mustafi though, and less liable to make blatantly stupid decisions, so could still be the better option.
I’m trying hard to galvanize myself for the forthcoming season. I’m keen to watch Pepe, Ceballos and some of the youngsters but then I remember we are bedeviled with Xhaka, Mustafi and Mhki.
More so, lamenting the prolonged absence of Holding buttresses the state of our defence.
There’s absolutely no excuse if we don’t sign defenders. No valid excuse at all.
Receding
I would take Cahill, as much as he wouldnt be ideal, he would still be our best CB by a distance.
That says a lot more about our CBs than it does Cahill.
If we dont buy at least 2 defenders this week, we wont be finishing in the top 6 IMO, let alone top 4.
Receding – Not really. He’s always reminded me a bit of Koscielny, albeit probably a physically stronger version, but not quite as quick.
Please, Chambers is not a credible option either. He’s such a weak ass. Him and Mustafi should have been sold.
Our defence is our most pressing need but we’ve seen no movements at all for this season.
“If we dont buy at least 2 defenders this week, we wont be finishing in the top 6 IMO, let alone top 4.”
Two center backs or does that include a full back??
“Receding – Not really. He’s always reminded me a bit of Koscielny, albeit probably a physically stronger version, but not quite as quick.”
Exactly, was never quick now you want to him to play out the back or play a high line…that’s how horror movies are made
“I would take Cahill, as much as he wouldnt be ideal, he would still be our best CB by a distance.That says a lot more about our CBs than it does Cahill.”
This makes for scary reading. How did we arrive here?? Or yes it all happened last summer if some are to be believed.
On one hand they argue Sven was the second coming of Christ and on the other hand they argue the new regime(of which Sven was an integral part) set us back three years
Receding
I would say a LB and CB
Realistically we need at least 2 CBs but we have to hope Saliba is ready next summer.
Our success this season will be 100% correlated to how many minutes Mustafi, Kolasinac and AMN play.
Our strategy in this final week of the transfer window needs to be based around ensuring they dont play very much.
“Our success this season will be 100% correlated to how many minutes Mustafi, Kolasinac and AMN play.” I hear you gambon I know if those three remain at the club somewhere along the line Emery will revert to the atrocious three at the back formation. I don’t think he knows we have a problem there considering he kept Monreal about and was actively fighting to keep Kos. He treats AMN and Kolasinac like they are vital players, although the pursuit of Tierney somehow points at an admission Kolasinac isn’t good enough, it’s all rather confusing really trying to figure out… Read more »
RH: “a lot f very cheap defenders moved without us even trying” I mean Joao Cancelo moved to Juve for 40m euro and Danilo cost City 30m euro. £27m + Danilo even if Danilo dropped a bit of his evaluation makes the transfer worth around £50m and that’s for a right back where we got a good enough starter in Bellerin. When we have absolutely horrendous CBs and not good enough starter LB it doesn’t make sense to spend this kind of money on a RB. The other problematic position is AM but that has to wait since we can’t… Read more »
Really concerned by the team spirit as well.
Never seen such a random bunch of individuals thrown together.
Cahill with a 97% vote. Landslide.
Hambon is 100% correct. You don’t go from 2 x 51 goals to better with the same players…it just doesn’t work like that. Older, slower and more broken, yes. Not better.
Two defenders ASAP. Don’t care who. Bodies.
‘Our success this season will be 100% correlated to how many minutes Mustafi, Kolasinac and AMN play’ Of course, so much rides on Tierney coming in and hitting the ground running, Bellerin reaching a consistent level following his injury and any CB coming in, in place of Mustafi. The one positive in this window is that I also wanted us to be in a position where we don’t have to rely on Iwobi, Mikki and Ozil and we are there at least. Xhaka can be included but I think he has the backing of Emery so I’m sure he will… Read more »
gambon: “If we dont buy at least 2 defenders this week, we wont be finishing in the top 6 IMO, let alone top 4.”
Okay, buddy. You’re back to your best.
Leftside
Tierney won’t be thirsting any ground running. The man has broken hips.
I’d actually argue we are better off starting with Jenkinson at RB when Bellerin is out over AMN.
The podcast is on point, great work.
If we dont buy at least 2 defenders this week, we wont be finishing in the top 6 IMO, let alone top 4.
Even if we do Defenders still need time to gel.
We played seven games in preseason
Scored 13 conceded 8, two clean sheets
Doesn’t look good on paper but how many teams keep clean sheets in preseason
“Really concerned by the team spirit as well.Never seen such a random bunch of individuals thrown together.”
they all seem to get along well socially, problem is no on pitch chemistry, nobody really understands the other on the pitch. The so called Auba and Lacazette partnership is an insult to partnerships.
Guns, he’s no way near as injury prone as being made out
In terms of CB, unless we’re going to spend BIG for somebody really good and really reliable, I think we want a short term solution. It could be Cahill on a one year deal, or it could be Rugani on a one year loan, or Umtiti on a loan to buy if he plays X number of games or… I’m sure there’s somebody else. What I don’t want is to spend significant-ish money on somebody that’s fairly average, where next summer with Saliba here they’d be out the team but never leave. One Squillaci is enough for a lifetime. If… Read more »
Paulinho “He’s worse than Mustafi by quite a bit.”
Only if you count the physical ability. Chambers is smarter and is aware of the danger. When Suarez ran between the two CBs, Chambers reacted to it. He could have done something if Suarez needed a first touch to control the ball. Mustafi was still day dreaming after the ball was in the net.
Receding – That’s pre-season though. Everyone has a smile on their face,and it’s all light-hearted, and I’m sure they all are amiable with each other on a superficial level. it’s when we get into October, November, and results start to go against us. Who is going to command respect and rally the troops. I see a lot of self-centred players in our dressing room who think about number one, and will point fingers. We’ve lost a lot of good characters in the summer, and I see a lot of chiefs, not a lot of Indians in the group. Hopefully we… Read more »
“When Suarez ran between the two CBs, Chambers reacted to it”
He should’ve reacted to it quicker. Mustafi was marshalling his man, and Chambers was the free man who had the picture – and Suarez – in front of him.
Swansea apparently want Nketiah on loan, good move. He needs to play in a team where there is an expectation that he will contribute.
I’m not a massive fan of Nketiah’s, certainly don’t think the’s to the level a lot of Arsenal fans think he is, this would be a really good test.
Imma throw a bit of speculation but I think that our big plan was to sell Chambers 99% sure, possibly Mustafi but I’m not 100% sure on that. Chambers would have been £15-20m easy. Mustafi £20-25m not so easy. Koscielny would play 1 more year for us and cover CB until Saliba comes ready to take his spot. But it all changed when Kos threw his tantrum around. And we’re stuck where we are at. Cause even if we sell Kos it would be what? £3-4m it’s not the same money that Chambers would have brought us. And we would… Read more »
Paulinio “”””Really concerned by the team spirit as well.Never seen such a random bunch of individuals thrown together.”””” THE MOST SALIENT POINT MADE THIS SUMMER ON THIS BLOG! (well observed: 10/10) The foto of the players on that plane departing to Barcelona yesterday was illuminating. We have no team spirit. Rambo. Welbeck , Cech gone Kos on strike, Regardless of what folk think of the above footballing abilities- they were solid Arsenal citizens respected by their team mates. the morale around the club – will be lower than a snakes belly. Easily the worst in the Prem. last season AFC… Read more »
Leftside
I’m pulling your chain. But let’s be honest, Arsenal have been butchering careers for a decade. Previously uninjured players come to us and instantly get career Enders.
Mustafi is better than Chambers by quite a lot. Mustafi doesn’t have consistency and his decision making is terrible really often, but in one-offs he’s bossed Diego Costas, Lukakus, you name it. Obviously he hasn’t done well for us. At all. Hence we need a replacement. I’d rather have him over Chambers any day of the week though. Tbh I hoped Mustafi turns his bad performances around in a similar way that Otamendi did at City 2 seasons ago. But I think he needs a dominant CB paired with him, one that tells him what to do and when. Anyhow… Read more »
AMN is not essentially a right back but has been converted from his favoured position….in the same way as Cole and Clichy were but with the same lack of defensive coaching as Gibbs. There lies the problem. If Emery cant coach his team to defend then we are relying on bringing in someone who already knows how to defend and will try to do so at Arsenal in spite of the frailties that surround him.This means we have to spend an absolute fortune on a defensive star or bring in someone with loads of PL experience who might be able… Read more »
“He’s worse than Mustafi by quite a bit.”
Didn’t know that such a disaster player could exist…
“Mustafi is better than Chambers by quite a lot”
Broadmoor must be having internet access day.
The most insane thing you’ll read today.
Apparently Lennon has come out and said he’s expecting another bid for Tierney.
I can see this one happening and I think a lot of the scare stories about his injuries are to condition the Celtic fans that they’ve got a good deal because he’s a crock.
We then desperately need a CB so Mustafi doesn’t even get near the bench. I have no idea what sort of budget we have but I’d guess we’re looking at a loan.
If we get those done top 4 is more than a reasonable chance.
Everytime I see Chambers play, I feel like it takes couple of seconds for him to realize what he wants to do, and then couple of seconds for him to actually transmit his brain process to his body. And then the turn motion itself takes another couple of seconds.
Mustafi is the exact opposite. Reacts before he thinks. So at least his reaction time is fast. Lol
Yes C G
The club has become a meal ticket for players.
Needs massive change from the top down.
No good praising what a good bit of work getting
Pépé was we did not need him our goal scoring record
spoke for itself last season.
WHY why WHY has the club not addressed the 4 STOOGES
At the back.
We have till Thursday/ Sunday????
We are a laughing stock to other clubs.
It’s strange how Emery is slagged off because he can’t coach a defence and therefore has to buy defenders.
When Klopp did that he was decreed a fucking genius.
Come on guys, cheer up. The new season starts this weekend. We all know we are on a rebuilding exercise,& it will take time. But I believe we now have a great team working for us with Edu & Raul who appears to be the negotiator we have desperately needed for several years now . We only missed 4th by 1 point last year & a second half collapse in the Europa ..We were SO CLOSE . This year we have new good players coming in, Our young lads are REALLY stepping up big time , we may still get… Read more »
Actually, I saw some stats yesterday that prove Mustafi is better than Harry Maguire.
So I’m puzzled why there aren’t clubs literally queueing round the block to sign him.
Of course, the stat that was missing was “Number of utter switchoffs that led to goals that cost the club points”.
If one looks at it positively from the playing side point of view . We were ahead against Real Madrid , Barcelona and Lyon and playing pretty decent and looking comfortable in those games . So what happened , the manager made changes that disturbed the balance of the team , hence we lost all cohesion in our play and consequently lost the games. If anything is to be learnt from this in pre season it is game management ….If the manager gets it wrong , the team will suffer …If the manager keeps the balance of the side when… Read more »
“Everytime I see Chambers play, I feel like it takes couple of seconds for him to realize what he wants to do, and then couple of seconds for him to actually transmit his brain process to his body. And then the turn motion itself takes another couple of seconds”
Ha ha, spot on.
RH,
This is the one. It’s a proof that StatDNA is mostly sh*t. Example – You wouldn’t need to tackle or intercept if you’ve already won the ball.
Arsenal on course to smash the 60 goals conceded milestone.
It’s the defence that would get a shitter team relegated.
CA,
Can we afford to let Nketiah go on loan? Do we want Auba and Laca playing the likes of the Carabao Cup etc?
James Wood
We absolutely required an addition out wide who could chip in with goals and release some of the burden on Auba and Laca. Last season Auba and Laca were efficient in front of goal, who’s to say that will be repeated this time out.
We also need bodies at the back as the world has screamed.
Pierre
Whilst I agree with some of what you say you are blowing the consequences of the changes out of proportion.
It’s pre season and friendly matches – you get large number of changes and it affects the teams balance. The exact same thing happens to other teams and you see it happen regularly in International friendlies.
There are several reasons “why the club has not addressed the 4 STOOGES”
1. Nobody else wants them.
2. Nobody can afford their wage demands.
3. They are simply not good enough.
4. They don’t want to leave.
What more can I say?
The fact that some posters on here are only just realising the seriousness of our situation just beggars belief.
“Leicester City won’t be signing Nathan Ake in this transfer window with Bournemouth valuing the Dutch defender at more than than £75m, Sky Sports News has been told.”
75m big ones for Nathan Ake …what a time to be alive
Looking like Leicester have a problem trying to replace Maguire – everyone knows they’ve a huge wad of cash in their pocket and have to buy a defender.
Accordingly everyone’s putting their prices up – I do however know of a PL experienced CB who’s available for £25 million and has the offer of 50,000 drivers willing to get him to a new stadium.
I will also add that it is also impossible to reduce the pressure on the defence without the ball ..
“Can we afford to let Nketiah go on loan? Do we want Auba and Laca playing the likes of the Carabao Cup etc?”
Good point
Maybe they want Martinelli as striker
Pierre
Are you suggesting we hide the ball in matches?
Trying to defend isn’t working so it might be worth a shot.
What about Xhaka as a CB or sweeper? Might work.
When you see that getting quoted for Ake you can see why we did what we did with Saliba.
“What about Xhaka as a CB or sweeper? ”
I couldnt think of a player anywhere in the world less suited to playing as a CB
Marc
“It’s pre season and friendly matches – you get large number of changes and it affects the teams balance. The exact same thing happens to other teams and you see it happen regularly in International friendlies.”s
Weak argument I’m afraid.
It didn’t happen to madrid, barca or Lyon against us did it ….their changes made them stronger …
Surely you can make changes without affecting the balance of the team …It happens too regularly for my liking.
“I couldnt think of a player anywhere in the world less suited to playing as a CB”
Mustafi?
Sometimes a change of position works for even the shittest of players.
Plus it’s not good for confidence or morale if you keep losing game s from winning positions …friendlies or not.
“It didn’t happen to madrid, barca or Lyon against us did it ….their changes made them stronger …”
Probably because they started with weaker teams and then changed to better ones, what exactly do we gain winning the Joan whatever cup???