Ramsey desperately flirting with a La Liga that’s probably not interested

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OH HEY MORNING.

I hope you’re good. I’m in the Hamptons this weekend with rowdy English friends. This is what you do in America to showcase your middle-class credentials. Real shame of it is I’m with two AKBs. The worst type, the ‘Wenger outs’ during the season, but now the dust has settled, it’s…

‘I think I can make a sound argument for every decision Wenger has made’

This is going to be a long weekend.

Anyway, who is excited about more signings? ME!

Xhaka has really lifted my spirits. I also think it’s interesting how hard Arsenal are going in the press with the ‘WE HAVE A LEADER’… I don’t really get it. Are they doing it because they want to tell the world that Wenger has finally owned up to a glaring error? Maybe.

I also like how the media are really focusing in on the comment that Xhaka said the manager was a legend. It seems to be a standard question with a new player…

‘Did the manager influence your decisions to move here?’

The player then says…

‘Yes, he has been like the father I always knew existed but legalese prevented me from being with him. Now I’m with him, and it feels right’

The media then say…

‘It’s amazing that players still move for his legend, maybe those Wenger out boys are fu*king stupid?’

… and look, he’s a pull. But come on, so is £100k a week. London. THE CLUB.

Also, when has a player ever said…

‘Actually, I’m not even sure who the manager is? I’m here for the red light district’

How about this for BANTER. Aaron Ramsey won’t rule out a move to La Liga.

“I’ve said it before – I would love to play in La Liga one day, at one of the big clubs.

“I watch the league every week. It suits my style. Maybe I will (move) someday, who knows what will happen in the future?”

I’ve said it before, I reckon if someone drops a bid for him, he’ll be moved on. Arguably one of the biggest disappointments of the last two seasons. A man playing for a move in my opinion. Not a very clever footballer. I’d not be sad if he left.

BUT, who would take him? Hardly playing like a man with any intentions of pushing his game to the standard he’d need to be at to win in Spain.

I’d be sad if Ozil left. The club are concerned that Bayern Munich are showing interest in our creative genius. That would be a worry. The temptation of a modern set up and trophies must be a big one. We’ll see though, we’ll see.

Ferguson dropped a big old praise piece for Wenger.

“Now he gets a lot of criticism, but I admire that you’re not going to bend to the will of the critics. He stays with what he believes in. And I think people who do that are outstanding coaches.

“When you talk about consistency, Arsene’s never changed the way that his side has played.

Not sure about that last comment. That’s kind of alarming in 20 years that he’s never changed his style. Especially when Ferguson knows full well the reason he succeeeded is because it was imperative he changed his style to keep up with the times.

Talking of managers I dislike, Mourinho has landed.

‘I prefer to focus on the giant club I have in my hands now, and I think what the fans are expecting me to say is that I want to win. I think what the players need to listen to is: “I want to win”.

Really not looking forward to him being back in the league. That’s 6 points we won’t see.

Lewandowski is apparently a target of Madrid this summer.

Someone told me that there is a Head of Sidebar at The Daily Mail.

Man, I’m trailing here… I need a beer. Have a good day!

 

924 Responses to “Ramsey desperately flirting with a La Liga that’s probably not interested”

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  1. Ankit_gooner

    Alexander
    Yes he is an offensive full back at wolfsburg.A very good lb but not for arsenal.Arsenal need a more conservative lb for balance as we have an offensive rb in bellerin.
    Tunny
    how can someone who rarely plays score a load of goals?Lets stay far away from players who are injury prone.

  2. tunnygriffboy

    Alex H

    Rodriguez is a top player. Good upgrade on what we’ve got. Very quick and excellent going forward. Should we get him we’d have the best fb’s in the league

    Still need striker and CB but if Gibbs goes Rodriguez is a really great replacement.

  3. Thorough

    Alex Cutter.
    A fool is a fool irrespective of where he or she comes from. I’m African but don’t leave me alone in a dark alley with Wenger.

  4. qna

    Tunny: Anybody swap one of the Ox or Walcott for Sturridg ? All are mighty injury prone but Sturridge would score shed loads for us.

    Nope. Wouldnt touch Sturridge.

    But I would sell Liverpool both players noting that they are home grown and deserve some premium on top of their talent. However, it does also depend who we are planning to bring in. Wenger does not have a very good transfer record all in all and we are likely to get another StatDNA bargain player such as we did with Elneny and Gabriel. I am 100% sure that StatDNA will not replace Oxlaide and Welbeck with bargain buys that are at least as good as these players.

    But if we use the money to bring in Mahrez, Isco or Gotze to name a few then I am all for it. But that wont happen. Talk is futile as long as Wenger remains. He has bought his proven player – the one that you have to pay market rate for – now I have no faith that the remaining players he brings in will be proven. Wenger himself will need to prove them.

  5. qna

    Ricardo Rodriguez has a shocking defensive rating on whoscored. It initially sounded like a great idea because going forward he looks a gun. But looking at his defensive stats he looks shocking. Anybody confirm this? We should stick with Monreal and Gibbs if that is the case. Is there no gun English LBs coming through? That is where the homegrown quota is best directed. Wonder if United will sell us Luke Shaw on the cheap 🙂

  6. Wallace

    hey tunny

    hope you’re well. I wouldn’t totally rule out Sturridge. he does seem very fragile, but then so was RVP until he got to about 27. would be nice to have a real talent up top again.

  7. Dream10

    qna

    Agreed. From what I have seen of Ricardo Rodriguez, he is not very good defensively. If we are to sign a young left back to replace Gibbs, Amavi of Aston Villa is a decent choice. He missed most of the year due to injury last year. However, he’s excellent defensively. He is tenacious like Ashley Cole.
    Amavi has the tools to be a top left back. Will be relatively cheap and only 22 as well.

  8. Ankit_gooner

    Ox would be world class under klopp.He would be one of the best players in the league if he plays in the liverpool system.As a striker,I am looking at morata,batshuayi,lukaku.These 3 are the only real options.

  9. qna

    Emirates: Presumably Rodriguez would be replacement for Gibbs at LB. Gibbs was converted Winger so not exactly sound in defence. Also probably less fragile.

    Well I agree that Gibbs is an ordinary defender. Not great going forward either. Has pace but no skill. But we should avoid the same mistakes. We should not bring any more full backs that can’t defend. I know Arsenal love them – Santos, Eboue, Gibbs. But we have to stop those mistaked. I dont know if RR is that bad. I only have seen him in highlights and the odd Wolfsberg match. If we are spending 25m euros on a full back he better be world class, going forward but more importantly at defending.

    Dream. I have heard great things about him from the 2014/15 season, but didnt see him really this season. To be honest I didnt watch much football last season – getting a bit sick of all this now. But if what you say is true then he wont improve us, he will make us weaker so why buy him.

  10. qna

    Ankit: Ox would be world class under klopp

    I dont know. The Ox played some great minutes for us. But he wasnt able to be consistent or make the break through. I think all our players would be better under Klopp than Wenger. But world class? That means clubs like Madrid, Barca and Bayern chasing him. I dont see it ever going that far.

  11. Marko

    So we’re picking Jordan Amavi over Ricardo Rodriguez on the basis of a squawka article and a handful of appearances for Aston Villa? Nah mate nah.

  12. Red&White4life

    “would be nice to have a real talent up top again.”

    Amazed to discover that wallace isn’t happy with L’oLreal up front!!!

  13. STV

    “Ox would be world class under klopp.He would be one of the best players in the league if he plays in the liverpool system.”

    Really? Why would he be?

  14. tunnygriffboy

    Qna

    Talking homegrown fullbacks there has been talk about this young lad Chilwell from Leicester. I would takr Rodriguez in a heartbeat though

    I think Wenger will spend big money on a striker this window as well. It’s urgentand even he said that we missed way too many chances last season. If it means selling someone to create a space and some money so be it. As people have said, Ox has the potential to shine

    Sturridge when fit is WC imo

    Our midfield is looking as balanced has it has in years. It seems we in for a CB as well as a striker. If Ospina goes we need a gk as well.

    I am delighted with Xhaka but I was so badly let down last summer that I don’t believe anything until signings are confirmed. Once again it APPEARS that we are looking to strengthen and once again we atm are two players short from having a complete squad

    Surely he has to buy a striker with Welbeck injured

  15. qna

    Tunny: I think Wenger will spend big money…… Its urgent

    Hahahaha. When has this not been the logic?

    And you have said it yourself on last summer. There was absolutely no way in the world that Wenger would not add at least one outfield player last summer. It was beyond even the most ardent critic or fan of Wenger that he would not do it. There would not be one single Wenger supporter who would think that Arsene would be the only manager in Europes top 5 leagues NOT to buy an outfield player.

    Yet that is what he did. From that point on, nobody can claim to know what Wenger will do, nor should we have any belief that he will follow logic or necessity – Wenger knows best.

    Regarding Sturridge being world class – not for me. Not even close. I think British playmakers and strikers are incredibly over-rated. They have diminished ball control and skills. They will never suit our style of play where the build up is slow and the teams have time to organise a defensive line. Rooney was an extremely rare bird.

    Sturriage is better than our strikers, except for Sanchez, but that actually doesnt say much. Given his injury record and our history with players like him in our medical rooms, we should stay away.

  16. Steveyg87

    “Sturriage is better than our strikers, except for Sanchez, but that actually doesnt say much. Given his injury record and our history with players like him in our medical rooms, we should stay away.”

    Agreed.

  17. Bamford10

    Talk on Twitter that Mourinho’s first signing could be West Ham’s Reece Oxford.

    And Del Bosque says Bellerin is in the Spain squad for the next warm-up:

    “At the moment, Bellerín is in the squad for our next match vs. South Korea on Wednesday.”

  18. Ankit_gooner

    I have watched atleast 5 matches of both ricardo rodriguez and jordan amavi.Both of them have world class potential.Its just that arsenal need a lb who is good in tight spaces,positionally aware,good at 1v1 defending.Amavi is better in these aspects and to me a better prospect.Rodriguez is more offensive and can switch off.Of course both are young but amavi suits arsenal a lot more.His qualites fits us better than rodriguez.Remember,we have bellerin on opposite flank.We need a more conservative defender left flank.Two offensive fullbacks would disturb the balance of the team.

  19. Ankit_gooner

    Ox would be world class under klopp becoz klopp’s game is based on transitions,so is ox.Klopp is focused on winning the ball high up the pitch,then opposition is disorganised and doesn’t have time to recover.That’s ox’s ideal scenario.He is great in such situations.At arsenal,he has to probe against a deep defense or get isolated/outnumbered wide and has to dribble his way out.He is still a kid with a lot of potential.Injuries and lack of consistent playing time has hurt him.He is stagnating a bit.A change of club would do him well especially to a manager like klopp who needs a player just like him.Ox is still very very well rounded player.I personally don’t want him to leave.

  20. Ankit_gooner

    Many defenses in epl are pretty static.In such matches playing ozil false 9 and using ox and ramsey flanking xhaka in a 433 midfield seems a nice idea.Late runs from midfield are a very good way of breaking through such defenses.

  21. Relieable Sauce

    If a young “potentially WC” player joins Arsenal, what would likely happen to said potential?

    If you are having trouble working it out, try listing the successes vs the failures of young players under Wenger and it might give you a helpful clue.

  22. Ankit_gooner

    Reliable
    There are hardly wc leftbacks growing on trees.Monreal is one.We need an understudy.Amavi fits that role perfectly.You cant sign a wc player to be a substitute.

  23. Ankit_gooner

    Wenger creates a very good environment for youngsters to grow.But the youngsters must be intelligent and self motivated.He is not going to be your personal coach but put you in different situations to help you grow.He is very good with youngsters.

  24. tunnygriffboy

    When fit Sturridge goalscoring record is ridiculous. He could be a top top striker but for his injury record. Would score a shedload for us. It’s his fitness that’s the worry

    I would like to keep Ox. Would rather sell Walcott. Ox hasn’t kicked on like he should. The last two years have been blighted by injury and he’s not had enough consistent game time. Would suit me better if we did a loan for him so he could have a season of playing every week and then we could see where we at.

    Chambers on loan an excellent idea. Same as Ox above. Allows us to bring in a more experience CB

    Take it Jenkinson our back up RB then ?

  25. Relieable Sauce

    Ankit

    Dont agree, Monreal is good but not WC and Wenger definitely isnt good with youngsters.

    Wheres your list of the successful products of Wengers methods?

  26. Ankit_gooner

    Reliable
    If I had to pick top 10 left backs in the world,monreal would be in it.Almost every player individually improves under wenger.Ramsey,coquelin,giroud,bellerin,koscielny,monreal just off the top of my head.

  27. Relieable Sauce

    Monreal, Koz, Giroud arent youngters are they – are you being deliberately disingenuous ?

    Coq, Ramsey!!…You are kidding, right?

    Bellerin is not showing any marked signs of improvement either that wouldnt be regarded as anything but natural progression through playing time.

  28. qna

    Ankit: Almost every player individually improves under wenger

    Nope. Thats not true. How many countless players has he brought in and played out of position only for them to get worse. Arshavin comes to mind, but there are plenty of others. Podolski another.

  29. Relieable Sauce

    Hillwood

    Apparently, if he is intelligent and self-motivated he’ll have a chance…
    : /

  30. tunnygriffboy

    Out of interest why do we have polar opposites of whether or not players improve under Wenger. Some do and some don’t. It’s the same with every manager. As a rule I tend to feel that more players improve under Wenger than don’t. I’m with Ankit on this one.

  31. Cesc Appeal

    I think Wenger has lost his ability to nurture a player, obviously people will point to Bellerin, but I think the number of players over the years has diminished.

    Coq I do not accept at all, he returned from Charlton and dropped into the starting eleven and just did a job, not much Wenger influence there.

    Kozz is probably his last big success story.

    Fingers crossed that is why we’re seeing a move to buying players Xhaka, leaders who don’t need Wenger, seeing Chambers go out on loan and a more experienced CB be brought in…that’s what we need, so you have your CB, Xhaka, Sanchez, Ozil and what have you as the voices in the team.

  32. Wallace

    Relieable

    “If you are having trouble working it out, try listing the successes vs the failures of young players under Wenger and it might give you a helpful clue..

    …and Wenger definitely isnt good with youngsters.”

    can you can name me a coach of the modern era who’s turned more kids(of 21yrs and under) into top players?

  33. Wallace

    Relieable

    “…and Wenger definitely isnt good with youngsters.”

    – Thuram, Cole, Toure, Anelka, Vieira, Ljungberg, Henry, Clichy, Song, Cesc, van Persie, Adebayor, Gibbs, Ramsey, Wilshere, Coquelin, Szczesny, Bellerin, Iwobi…

  34. tunnygriffboy

    If you look a at the current squads in the PL I think Wenger has done as well as anyone in bringing young players and players from ‘lesser’ teams through into first team players

    Bellerin, Kos, Monreal, Coquelin, Wilshere, Ramsey, Giroud, Iwobi are examples of this. You could also say Ox, Walcott and Gibbs were young lads brought through but maybe not improved as much as we’d like. Is there another club that has done this ?

  35. tunnygriffboy

    Reliable

    I reckon that list of Wallace is pretty fair. As I said there are loads of issues that you can bash Wenger for but if you’re being objective bringing young players through is not one of them.

  36. tunnygriffboy

    Hillwood

    Of course there are players that failed but as a rule Wenger is in the positives in bringing players through. Very few managers have done what Wenger has done.

  37. Ankit_gooner

    Lol.I forgot you asked about youngsters.I was talking about general improvement of players.It is easier to improve younger players than older players btw.Coq and ramsey improved a lot under wenger lol.I told you,wenger provides an environment for youngsters to succeed.After bellerin’s performance against dortmund in that 2-0 loss,he improved a lot,due to training.It was evident when debuchy first got injured,from bellerin’s performance,that he did a lot of work in training and improved.Calum chambers has improved as well.He had one horrific game early on in the season against liverpool but has done well since then whenever he played.His 1v1 defending has improved and will improve more.Look at a player’s technique and decision making when they come to arsenal.If he stays fit,look at his technique and decision making after 18 months.It improves.A lot of it is due to wenger’s nurturing.
    Poldi and arshavin came in pretty late and where not intelligent/self motivated enough.wenger will protect you from mistakes and give you opportunities in different roles/scenarios.He then discusses such events with the players.You should ask this question to the players.They will all say wenger has improved them individually.

  38. Relieable Sauce

    Samesong

    Good stuff.

    Interesting that Cabalerro is now a polititian, maybe he did learn something under Wenger.

  39. tunnygriffboy

    Whether or not you agree with this policy over the last 4 or 5 years is a different thing. The system has brought CL football for us but we should have been closer to challenging for the title. The last 3 years has seen some very good players come in to play with these players

    I an ideal world you’d bring youngsters through and add top quality to play alongside them. This should have been done sooner and we were badly let down last summer in this regard

  40. Ankit_gooner

    Francis Jeffers, Denilson,Sanogo etc. Not sure of their ages so I stopped.
    Do you expect a manager to have a 100% record?If a player is playing under the manager from 2014.You see improvements in 2016 which is not just due to settling in the team or experience,so generally you give credit to the coach.

    About ox being world class.Being world class is not an absolute thing.You can definitely look world class in a system.If the system hides your flaws and maximises your strengths and you execute your strengths well,you will be deemed to have had a world class season.World class to me simply means being in the top 10 in your role.Like for example,chicarito is no world class player in an absolute sense.But for the role he plays for leverkusen,he had a world class season.

  41. Wallace

    Relieable Sauce

    “Wallace…Not that I take you serious anyway, ”

    likewise, Relieable, likewise… all those players I listed are full internationals, bar Coquelin, and i’d say six of them rate as world class. not bad for someone who’s ‘no good with youngsters’.

  42. HillWood

    Ankit-I don’t expect anything from Wenger. I’m not going to check the ages of a very long list of dross Wenger has bought in as they might be outside Wallaces age cut off and I’d never hear the last of it

  43. Ankit_gooner

    Before 2010,arsenal didn’t have money.In 2008,there was a tactical revolution led by pep guardiola.In 2011 there was another tactical revolution led by Jurgen klopp.Since then,wenger has been left behind in terms of tactics and preparation.That’s what has happened.He is still a very good manager.Just not good enough for arsenal to progress as a club.I think wenger is actually pretty good in the transfer market.What he needs is a david dein figure who would go on to buy a player wenger considers good but risky investment.

  44. Phd007

    WallaceMay 30, 2016 13:56:47
    Relieable“…and Wenger definitely isnt good with youngsters.”– Thuram, Cole, Toure, Anelka, Vieira, Ljungberg, Henry, Clichy, Song, Cesc, van Persie, Adebayor, Gibbs, Ramsey, Wilshere, Coquelin, Szczesny, Bellerin, Iwobi…
    ———————————————-
    lol
    lol

    Oh Wallace you do come out with some corkers..Pure comedy gold..

  45. Ankit_gooner

    Arsenal have strategic issues.Of course arsenal can still win the league despite all wenger’s tactical faults.Just get out of the cup tournaments early.Keep players fit.Have a 30 man squad.Players must finish their chances.Arsenal probably lost about 9-10 points this season due to bad finishing.For this,players are to be blamed,not wenger.Add a striker,another CM and as depth signings-lb,cb,rb.Hope for a little luck.You win the league.Beat all bottom 10 teams home and away.That gives you 66 points.We got 12 pts from top 4 teams.Repeat that and you have 78 pts.5th,6th,7th,8th,9th place teams-12 pts from these 4 teams and you have 90 pts.Its not impossible.

  46. Relieable Sauce

    …Szczesney…lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol…lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol…

    Thankyou Wallace for making my day.

    Trolling of the highest order but still very funny.

  47. Bamford10

    “Aaron Ramsey: Has been dribbled past more times (212) than any other player in the last 5 Premier League seasons.” – WhoScored

    Have always said Ramsey is relatively slow and un-athletic.

  48. London gunner

    Wallace

    Once again with his tongue up at arsenes arsenhole..

    He’s great at developing young talent is he? Shame he is not so great at securing major trophies…. Been over a decade now.

    Also his powers with young players seem to be working just look at the horribly out of form ox, chambers, Ramsey, Walcott and the damaged wilshere (constantly overplaying is a great way to develop talent)

    Oh and that Argentinan mug you don’t reckon is up to the arsenal job has helped develop koke, griezmann, saul, correa, Oliver torres, carrasco, courtois… All in recent seasons.

  49. Bamford10

    Ankit

    “Every other position seemed fine.”

    Huh? Giroud and/or Welbeck were good enough CFs? Almost no one here thought that. And for good reason: neither is/was good enough.

  50. Bamford10

    Ankit

    “World class to me simply means being in the top 10 in your role.”

    Top 10 in your position? Ummm, no. That’s way too low a bar.

    There is a long-standing view here on Le Grove that the term “world class” is a problematic one on account of people;’s differing definitions, however, I would say the most popular conceptions of “world class” here are:
    1. top three in a position
    2. would make the world XI
    3. would make the world XXII
    4. would make the world XXXIII

  51. steve

    “Last summer,its only defensive midfielder we should have bought.That’s what we missed.Every other position seemed fine.”
    ___

    Lol another delusional Arsenal supporter.

  52. steve

    “Beat all bottom 10 teams home and away.That gives you 66 points”

    ___

    How do you get 66 points from 20 games?

  53. Bamford10

    Ankit

    “Almost every player individually improves under Wenger.”

    The following have all either not improved, stagnated or declined under Wenger:

    Walcott
    Ramsey
    Oxlade

    Walcott is a massive indictment of Wenger. He has been with the club for some ten years, yet he has barely improved technically and he doesn’t have a position. Not a genuine CF, not a genuine wide player.

    A complete failure on Wenger’s part.

  54. Phd007

    Wallace..

    WallaceMay 30, 2016 13:56:47
    Relieable“…and Wenger definitely isnt good with youngsters.”– Thuram, Cole, Toure, Anelka, Vieira, Ljungberg, Henry, Clichy, Song, Cesc, van Persie, Adebayor, Gibbs, Ramsey, Wilshere, Coquelin, Szczesny, Bellerin, Iwobi…

    —————————-
    Credit:

    Lilian Thuram-I’ll give you..
    Henry- I’ll give you(especially given his time at Monaco)
    Vieira-possibly I’ll give you.
    Ljungberg-I’ll give you
    Adebayor-I’ll give you
    Toure-I’ll give you

    No Credit:
    Anelka-Was a talent even when he was at PSG(1st time around)-But you can have that.

    Ashely Cole-He tried to offload to Crystal Palace.Didn’t realise he had a world class left back..Similar to the Coquelin situation.Ashley Cole was shunted due to the injury and passport scenario with Sylvino.

    Song??-He had one good season,the season RVP single handedly got us CL by the skin of our teeth..Other than that season,Song was generally poor..

    Clichy-was ok.Nothing to actually scream from the rooftops about.A back up to Ashley Cole.

    Kieran Gibbs-Is actually a Wimbledon Academy product.And let’s be honest,he’s been pretty dire.

    Cesc Fabgregas-We all know came through La Masia..So Arsene certainly didn’t develop him..

    RVP-was tearing it up at Feyenoord.Appeared in the 2001/02UEFA Cup final& UEFA Super Cup 2002..Was already representing the national team at U17/U19/U21.And the senior national team in 2005.
    Certainly and most definitely not was a product of Arsene’s academy.

    Wheelchair(Wilshire)-came from Luton..Either way,what consistent performances have we seen till date.The only performances people talk of regarding Wilshere,is his performance against Barcelona,how many years ago?Please…Take a few seats Wallace..

    Ramsey-One good season since 2008 when we signed him from Cardiff..
    And what he’s suddenly WC?

    Szech-Yes this error prone keeper..Who’s been offloaded to Roma on loan.One who cost us 2011 CC Final & other important games.Most memorably had an enduring role in the 8-2 Old Trafford defeat..Yeah,he certainly is a product of Arsene’s nurturing.

    Coquelin-Who he loaned to Freiburg,then try to sell to Charlton.Only an injury crisis prevented Coquellin from remaining here.Similar to the Ashley Cole scenario..

    Bellerin-Product of La Masia.

    Wallace-I think you need to take a few move seats..

    Out of your list..You will certainly need to cull at least 11 names..

    Which leaves you with about 6 names that you can give Arsene credit for..

    You need to rethink the names a bit more,not delve deep into revisionism.
    Something you are good at..

  55. Bamford10

    In my opinion, only Ozil and Sanchez would be in the running for “world class” based on the criteria below:

    1. top three in a position
    2. would make the world XI
    3. would make the world XXII
    4. would make the world XXXIII

    At their best, both could be in the XXII or the XXXIII, though neither would be in the XI.

    Another way of slicing it is to ask whether a given player is basically of the same caliber as a given player in the XI or the XXII. This, I think, is fairer as there are sometimes players who are “world class” in terms of their quality but they may not necessarily make one’s World XXII because of the quality at a given position.

    For example, from what I’ve seen of Saul, he is world class, esp. for a young player, but I don’t know if he makes even the XXXIII.

    But top ten at a given position is way too low a bar.

  56. Wallace

    Relieable

    “…Szczesney…lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol”

    25 caps for Poland. did well at Roma last season. bit of a dick, but he’s a good keeper.

  57. Bamford10

    I’m revising my earlier list of working criteria for “world class” to include players who are basically as good as their counterparts in the World XXII, but may not make the cut on account of quality at a position:

    Criteria for “world class”:

    1. top three in his position
    2. would make the world XI
    3. would make the world XXII
    4. would make the world XXXIII
    5. is of the same caliber/quality as those in his position above

  58. Phd007

    WallaceMay 30, 2016 15:34:29
    Relieable“…Szczesney…lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol”25 caps for Poland. did well at Roma last season. bit of a dick, but he’s a good keeper.

    ————–
    So what if Szech has 25 caps for Poland.
    Gunnar Nielsen has 32 caps for the Faroe Islands…

    What’s your point?

  59. Wallace

    Phd

    “Ashely Cole-He tried to offload to Crystal Palace.Didn’t realise he had a world class left back”

    odd then that he told the Palace manager at the time to look after Cole as he was something special.

    “Song??-He had one good season,the season RVP single handedly got us CL by the skin of our teeth..Other than that season,Song was generally poor..”

    went from being ‘a fish in a tree’ at 18 to Barcelona at 25. suggests he was okay. Barcelona are a pretty decent side these days.

    “Cesc Fabgregas-We all know came through La Masia..So Arsene certainly didn’t develop him..”

    ach, another simpleton who thinks a great player at 16 always makes it…

    “Wheelchair(Wilshire)-came from Luton..”

    …eh?

  60. daz

    I don’t think you can put a limit on how many WC players there are in a particular position, just from the CL final you could say Gabi, Koke, Modric and Kroos are all WC CMs and that’s just from two teams

  61. Wallace

    Phd

    “RVP-was tearing it up at Feyenoord.”

    he wasn’t even in the Feyenoord side when we signed him because of attitude issues. come on man, I know my stuff, you’re going to have to try a little harder than that.

  62. Joe

    Wallace your list is one of someone who has his wenger blinkers on

    016 13:56:47
    Relieable“…and Wenger definitely isnt good with youngsters.”– Thuram, Cole, Toure, Anelka, Vieira, Ljungberg, Henry, Clichy, Song, Cesc, van Persie, Adebayor, Gibbs, Ramsey, Wilshere, Coquelin, Szczesny, Bellerin, Iwobi…

    Most of those players were already internationals by the time they were at Arsenal. Freddy, viera, Henry, clichy , toure were all internationals already

    Cesc, rvp, Anelka, bellerin were going to be great no matter what. They had the talent.

    So yeah. Ramsey? Jack? Clichy? Gibbs? Coq? Wol? IWobi? Are not top players. What has iWobi done that makes him a top player

    song lasted a year at Barca. What does that prove.

    They bought hleb as well.

    Not really a defining factor

    Nice try though Wallace. But you’re wrong again

  63. Joe

    And before you say what was Henry doing at juve. He was already on the national team of a France that was on the cusp of back to back euro /World Cup triumphs

    Rvp was a massive talent with behavioural issues.

    Needed a change of scenery.

    For the allegations and all that

    He probably would of been even more prolific at United as he most likely would of been injured so much

  64. Joe

    Does anyone else find it ridiculous That Ronaldo is getting so much of the attention from the final where he really did nothing all game and stole the limelight by scoring the final pen and acting like he won the match all by himself

  65. Ughelligunner

    “Leicester used fewer players than any other Premier League team to win the title.
    Over the 36 matches, the foxes only started 18 players – with just 19 making an
    appearance overall.
    The assembled Leicester City team cost £54.4 million –
    compared to runner-up Arsenal’s £251.9 million and fourth place Manchester City’s 418.8 million.

    The club installed liquid- nitrogen cryotherapy
    chambers to aid with players’ recovery, which exposes the
    sportsmen to temperatures as low as -135C. Jamie Vardy
    said he had been using the facility ‘non-stop’.
    Ten monks from Bangkok’s Golden Buddha temple were
    flown to Britain in club owner Vichai
    Srivaddhanaprabha’s private jet to bless the pitch and players prior to matches. The
    monks then spent each game in a deep meditation.”
    culled from: the telegraph.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/05/30/ngolo-kante-says-he-is-happy-at-leicester-city-amid-arsenal-tran/

    this is history not to be forgotten.

  66. Phd007

    WallaceMay 30, 2016 16:04:16
    Phd“RVP-was tearing it up at Feyenoord.”he wasn’t even in the Feyenoord side when we signed him because of attitude issues. come on man, I know my stuff, you’re going to have to try a little harder than that
    ——————————————
    No Wallace,you going to have to try and cull your list from 20 names down to 6 names..

    Re:RVP
    Yes,he had attitude problems..He figured in their UEFA Cup 2001/2 final & UEFA Super cup 2012 Final.

    Whole point is,Arsene don’t develop him..He was an already known talent,but with attitude problems

    As for Song.being a fish and being sold to Barca..
    So what..We sold Vermaelen to Barca as well..

    Song had one good season..A lot of people were happy he got sold.Or rather,he wasn’t terribly missed when we sold him..

    As for Cole..He was understudy to Sylvinho..
    It’s common knowledge Arsene tried to flog him to Crystal Palace..
    Only to recall him back from loan,due to injury sustained by Sylvinho.
    Everyman and his dog knows this..

    Why are you trying to rewrite history?

  67. WengerEagle

    ‘Does anyone else find it ridiculous That Ronaldo is getting so much of the attention from the final where he really did nothing all game and stole the limelight by scoring the final pen and acting like he won the match all by himself’

    He’s nearly getting more of the attention from people saying that he played like shit which he certainly did.

    Still, the guy scored the winning penalty which always grabs the headlines and he scored 16 goals to get them to the Final in the first place, without his hat-rick vs Wolsfburg in the QF Real Madrid wouldn’t have won the competition, simple as.

    Alexis played terribly vs Argentina in the 2015 Copa America Final but he received most of the plaudits for sticking away the winning penalty in the shoot-out.

  68. daz

    “Whole point is,Arsene don’t develop him..He was an already known talent,but with attitude problems”

    Henry says he learnt alot from Guardiola so the fact someone already has made a name for themselves does not mean they can no longer develop new qualities either by themselves or with the help of a coach, why does Federer still have a coach?

  69. daz

    Frankly some of the attempts to take any credit away from wenger is so desperate it’s funny, George Weah
    Every time I was going on the field,” Weah told FIFA TV. “I was playing for Arsene Wenger.

    “I wanted him to know that what he had done for me, this is the way I could pay him. I would break my knee, my hand, my face for him just to win the game.

    Wenger
    “He took care of me like a son and I couldn’t believe that because when racism was at its peak, Arsene taught me that black men and white men can live together.”

    Wenger is just of fond of his former pupil, admitting back in May, that the story of how he signed Weah was worthy of a book.

  70. Wallace

    Phd

    “Whole point is,Arsene don’t develop him..He was an already known talent,but with attitude problems”

    we signed him for £2.75m then sold him 8yrs later(at 29) to Man Utd for £22.5m. suggests there was quite a bit of improvement under Wenger, yeah?

  71. S Asoa

    About Wenger developing players , aw c’mon we been talking about Wenger perversely playing players out of their natural position or aptitude.
    What Wenger is good at is PR. He networks to get his acolytes to publish misleading information and that’s how the perception that Wenger nurtures talent.
    My left foot he does !

  72. tunnygriffboy

    We’re assuming every young player developed has to turn out to be world class. This will never happen. Likewise not every player will develop the potential seen at a young age.

    The current players brought through have been good enough to secure CL football so they are not bad players. They haven’t been good enough to win the title

    We have finally started to bri g in some top quality players to play alongside these players. This should have started earlier and at a faster rate.

  73. Marko

    Defenders we’ve been linked to so far are Ricardo Rodriguez, Zouma, Koulibaly, Musacchio and now Murrillo of Inter and I’ll be honest Marky like. All would improve us no end. Would prefer any of the later 3 or Mustafi.

  74. Phd007

    HillWoodMay 30, 2016 16:59:03
    Pretty desperate having to go all the way back to Monaco
    ————————————-
    Tell me about it..lol

  75. Relieable Sauce

    Who is assuming that Tunny?

    The original debate was regarding the improvement of young players under Wenger and now you are going to extremes to avoid the evidence, or lack of.

    You stated earlier that players can be defined as a success because they have made the 1st team. Wengers 1st team.

    Senderos, Djourou, Manninger, Almunia, Gibbs, Bendtner, Denilson, Gervinho, Chamahk, Song, Walcott, Chamberlain.
    All these players (and more) have been regular first teamers over the years, so can only be deemed a success when using your nonsensical argument.

  76. STV

    “Does anyone else find it ridiculous That Ronaldo is getting so much of the attention from the final where he really did nothing all game and stole the limelight by scoring the final pen and acting like he won the match all by himself”

    Really poor form from Ronaldo. An insult to other 11 players who actually won the game for Real.

  77. STV

    Can’t take a guy who says Ox will be world class or Arsene turns every young player he touches in to a better one, seriously.

  78. Phd007

    Wallace

    For every one talent you can name that Arsene has developed,I’m sure we can list more than a dozen that he failed to develop,or didn’t quite cut the mustard..

    Stepanovs
    Senderos
    Jeffers
    Park Chu Young
    Inanmoto
    Richard Wright
    Aliadere
    Christopher Wreh
    Tavlaridis
    Cygan
    Bentley
    Pennant
    Rami Shaaban
    Jerome Thomas
    Owusu
    Djourou
    Alumnia
    Lupoli
    Kerrea Gilbert
    Diaby
    Denilson
    Traore
    Lansbury
    Hoyte
    Bischoff
    Chamakh
    Squillaci
    JET
    Miquel
    Sanogo
    Kallstrom
    Volz
    Barrett
    Frimpong
    Jenkinson
    Gervinho
    Santos
    Malz
    Diawara
    Selley
    Hartson

  79. leon

    With the signing plus we have elaini and couqulin plus wenger will have wilshire and cazorla I don’t see wenger Ramsey fits in, I am rather concerned that wenger is considering giving flamani a new contract I do hope that’s just rumour

  80. alexanderhenry

    On ‘improving players’, why is it that wenger is expected to work wonders and other managers are not?
    Every young players that fails to make it at arsenal somehow becomes a ‘failure’ on wenger’s part- in WOB logic anyway.
    How many youth players and cheap signings have mourihno or guardiola ‘improved’ ?
    The point I’m making is this: Top managers at big clubs actually prepared to spend some proper money, don’t have to rely on youth players and cheap signings.
    They just buy the ready made thing.
    This summer, Mourihno and guardiola aren’t going to be buying promising youth players, ageing pros or cut price strikers for £10 million. That’s because man city and man u will invest as much as they think is necessary to ensure that their managers have the best players to work with.

    Arsenal fc will not do this. In fact Arsenal fc will never do this under the current regime.
    Nett, we’ll probably be one of the lowest spenders in the PL once again.

  81. Phd007

    HillWoodMay 30, 2016 17:36:36
    Igors Stepanovs would struggle to get in the Yorkshire Whippets 2nd 11
    —————-
    lol..

    Talking of Yorkshire,did you ever visit the Yorkshire Dales?

    How are you doing by the way?

  82. STV

    WE,

    Good team but Luca Modric deserves a place IMO.

    Oblak
    Carjaval Ramos Godin Filipe Luis
    Vidal
    Kroos Modric
    Messi Griezmann. Ronaldo

  83. Phd007

    LOL

    Now it’s Kroenke’s fault for Arsene buying Inamoto,Aliadere,Jeffers,Richard Wright,etc,etc…

  84. alexanderhenry

    Phd007

    Regarding your list:

    They nearly all cost relative peanuts apart from gervinho and arsenal recouped most of his transfer fee when he moved to Rome. Jeffers was a significant error- £10 million was a lot back then.
    The question you should be asking is this::

    Why was arsenal making these cheap signings?

  85. Phd007

    SamesongMay 30, 2016 17:45:35
    Now that’s a big list PHd.
    ————
    Yeah, pity Wallace conveniently forgot to inform us,of the duds Arsene has signed and failed to develop under his tutelage..

  86. tunnygriffboy

    Reliable

    I’m not avoiding any thing. Players have developed. My point was that they’ve developed to be good enough to get the side into the CL. They are not bad players. They haven’t been good enough to win the title though. Bringing in top players to work and play with them should increase their development further.

    This is the model the club/Wenger have opted for. I quite like the principle but the top players have been too slow coming in.

    My point was that not every player will developed into WC talent. This is not to say they haven’t developed. We have some very good players and slowly Ozil, Alexis and now Xhaka have been added to them. Add a top striker to them plus a CB for Mertesacker and the squad becomes stronger

    I haven’t said that players are a success or not anywhere in my posts. I’ve said they’ve developed into players that have got us top 4. Nowhere have I said this was a success or failure. You appear to be twisting what I’ve said. Some of these players would be good enough to be part of a team/squad to win things if the top top players are brought in to play alongside them

  87. Redtruth

    Credit:
    Lilian Thuram-I’ll give you..
    Henry- I’ll give you(especially given his time at Monaco)
    Vieira-possibly I’ll give you.
    Ljungberg-I’ll give you
    Adebayor-I’ll give you
    Toure-I’ll give you

    Lol none og thosr players were brought on by Wenger

    Thuram-Hardly played under Wenger if at all.

    Henry-Worlfd Cup Winner top scorer for France, played for 1 month under Wenger at Monaco before Wenger sacked

    Vieira-Developed inspite of Wenger

    Ljungberg-International for Sweden. In fact he was MOTM when Sweden played Rngland before Wenger bought him..

    Adebayor-lol lol average player

    Toure-Absolute liability woeful defender..

  88. alexanderhenry

    PHD0007

    ..damn right it was Kroenke’s fault .

    …or do you subscribe to the view that wenger could have actually made big signings but refused to do so because he wanted to prove he could win things with mediocre players?

  89. alexanderhenry

    Phd007

    ‘Yeah, pity Wallace conveniently forgot to inform us,of the duds Arsene has signed and failed to develop under his tutelage..’

    So, how many youth players has Mourihno ‘developed’. Please feel free to post another list.

  90. Samesong

    I need to make a point when it comes to developing young players most of the TOP managers in their current team have pressure to win titles. They don’t have the ease of having 10 years.

  91. STV

    Interesting why people give so much importance to transfer fee recoup/ profit as a measure of improvement under Wenger.

  92. tunnygriffboy

    Phd

    Thats 21 years of players. There will be lists like that for every club over 21 years. They number of players that come into clubs or come through the academy at a young age and do not develop into first teamers are huge and will far outweigh the number of players that make it at a top four club.

  93. Samesong

    So, how many youth players has Mourihno ‘developed’. Please feel free to post another list.

    read below Mourinho not interested in developing kids but winning titles.

    The real worry for top-level football, however, is that Mourinho’s youth record isn’t among the worst despite how it’s often presented. It’s actually fairly standard. The records of Carlo Ancelotti, Brendan Rodgers, Roberto Martinez and — especially — Tony Pulis are even worse. Mourinho perhaps explained why this is the case for some managers in his recent comment about young players.

    “You don’t need five matches in a row,” Mourinho said. “You need 10 minutes. In 10 minutes you can show me if you are ready or not… You can show you are ready, you are mentally ready, you are physically ready, you are ready to cope with the pressure, you are not the kind of guy who trains and plays against kids his own age but not ready to play at the high level. Ten minutes can say a lot.”

  94. Redtruth

    Wenger has no coaching acumen to develop players, they either develop themselves or have been developed by their native Countries Academy

  95. Phd007

    Phd007May 30, 2016 17:46:45
    LOL
    Now it’s Kroenke’s fault for Arsene buying Inamoto,Aliadere,Jeffers,Richard Wright,etc,etc…

    ————————
    alexanderhenryMay 30, 2016 17:51:01
    .damn right it was Kroenke’s fault .…
    or do you subscribe to the view that wenger could have actually made big signings but refused to do so because he wanted to prove he could win things with mediocre players?
    ————————–

    LOL

    Some of those players I listed above,were bought by Arsene, before Kroenke arrived on the scene…

    ???????
    LOL

  96. daz

    Tunny

    Don’t try to use common sense when talking to PhD other wise you will be in for a long night, he is a fantasist that’s all he understands

  97. alexanderhenry

    Many of you have been stressing the importance of ‘developing’ players.

    The fact that every cheap signing and youth player at arsenal hasn’t blossomed into the next Lionel Messi is a terrible failure on wenger’s part apparently.

    All I can say is that wenger’s successor is going to have a very tough job. Success has nothing to do with money it seems. It’s all about ‘developing’ talent. Well, if that’s the case, poor old wenger’s successor had better be good at it.

    Who is this mysterious man? Is he going to arrive at the club with a pointy hat and a wand?

  98. Wallace

    STV

    “Interesting why people give so much importance to transfer fee recoup/ profit as a measure of improvement under Wenger.”

    it’s a decent yardstick. if you can think of a better one feel free…

  99. alexanderhenry

    Phd007

    You got me there. Well done.
    Listing every squad player who hasn’t made it under wenger ober the years as some kind of indictment is a little unfair though, don’t you think?
    Surely you understand my point.

  100. Wallace

    Phd

    so what was that Wilshere coming from Luton thing all about?

    was your list restricted to only those players born at London Colney? i’ll admit, that’s a tough one.

  101. alexanderhenry

    Redruth

    Yes, he was.
    Wenger would much rather have kept those players as well as viera and henry. Because of the stadium move- at least that’s the excuse given to us- wenger was forced to sell off the invincibles and cash in on them while they were still worth something.

  102. alexanderhenry

    Redruth

    .. he was right to cash in on overmars though. He had one ok season at barcelona and that was it.

  103. alexanderhenry

    So,

    Let’s have a list of all the wonderful talent ‘developed’ by Mourinho and Guardiola.
    In fact I wonder how many youth players and cheap signings they’ll ‘develop’ at city and utd in the next ten years.

  104. Phd007

    tunnygriffboyMay 30, 2016 17:55:37
    PhdThats 21 years of players. There will be lists like that for every club over 21 years. They number of players that come into clubs or come through the academy at a young age and do not develop into first teamers are huge and will far outweigh the number of players that make it at a top four club.
    —————————

    Really??
    Don’t know of any top clubs in Europe,where a manager presides over the club for 21 years..?

    Only one I can think of is Arsene..

    Maybe Guy Roux at Auxerre-he was there for almost 30 years,over three different spells..But then Auxerre were a footballing academy..Finding talent,then selling them on..

    Famous alumni from Auxerre:
    Mexes
    Cantona
    Sagna
    Djibril Cisse
    Mohammad Sissoko
    Diaby

    These are the ones of the top of my head..

    Unless you’re saying we are a footballing academy,I don’t think there’s a case to be made that Arsene is a finder of talent.Well not in recent times anyway..

    And his list of bad buys/not developing talent far outweighs the good buys he has found..

  105. Phd007

    WallaceMay 30, 2016 18:07:19
    Phdso what was that Wilshere coming from Luton thing all about?was your list restricted to only those players born at London Colney? i’ll admit, that’s a tough one.
    —————————–
    As usual,trying to be cute..

    Did you enjoy my list Wallace…?? 🙂

  106. STV

    “So, how many youth players has Mourihno ‘developed’. Please feel free to post another list.”

    Alexander Henry,

    Varane, Carvahlo, Deco..

    Most importantly how he developed top players in to world class players

    At Porto, Ferreira, Maniche, Carvahlo

    At Chelsea Lampard Terry Robben Drogba

    At Inter Sneijder Milito Samuel ( last two were older but look at the difference Mourinho made in them)

    At Real Madrid Ramos( he made him play centreback regularly thus the hardened defender we know him today) Ozil, Dimaria,

    At Chelsea Hazard.

    Now the difference to Wenger here is they were much more effective and achieved huge success. Not stagnation.

  107. alexanderhenry

    With the £200 million Mourihno’s going to get at Man utd we’ll be seeing a lot of new young talent being ‘developed’ I’m sure. It’ll be interesting to see all the new faces and new stars coming out of old trafford.

    Likewise, with the hundreds of millions given to guardiola I’m sure the man city training ground will become like a new scool for great footballers.

    The pair of them must be scouring the lower leagues and youth academies of europe as we speak. ‘Developing’ talent. That’s the name of the game.

  108. tunnygriffboy

    Mourinho has never had theinlination to develop young or cut price players to build a team. He has never had to. The teams he’s managed bar Porto (who at thetime were easily the best team in Portugal) have always been hugely wealthy and one of, if not the strongest teams in their league. He has been able to spend 100s of millions on players. Developing young players is something he’s never had to do.

    Surely for part of the last 10 years Wenger has been hamstrung in terms of being able to buy players. He and the club have had to develop them when we first moved stadiums. We should though have been buying better players for a longer period than we have been

    The club is set up to be self sustaining. Kronke won’t put his hand in his pocket. We will always have to develop young players or bargains to succeed. We will buy top players to play with them. We just haven’t spent all the money we’ve hadto bring in these players. Whoever takes over from Wenger will have to adhere to this strategy.

    One last thing on Mourinho. Chelsea have the strongest youth teams in the country possibly Europe. They have 30 odd youngsters out on loan. Last season Mourinho wanted to strengthen his squad in the summer. He didn’t get the players he wanted. He did though have a plethora of young talent available to him to develop into good first team players. He ignored all of them and his team disintegrated. He has no interest in developing young talent, he’s never had to. Can he do it ?

  109. alexanderhenry

    STV

    I admit ignorance on porto however you cannot be serious where
    Lampard, Terry, Robben , Drogba, Ramos , Ozil, di Maria, Sneijder and Hazard are concerned.

    These were all established , proven, top players and/or massive signings.

  110. gambon

    Lol at wallace justifying wengers record with kuds by talking about Anelka, Thuram, Vieira, Cole, Ljungberg etc.

    So we should have Tony Adams playing at CB because he was once decent?

    Even bigger lol at talking about Iwobi, Szczesny, Gibbs etc.

    Iwobi is a nothing player.

    Szczesny said Spaletti did more in 4 months than Wenger in 10 years.

    Gibbs has never been good. It just took Wenger far longer than any fan to realise.

  111. tunnygriffboy

    Stv

    Are you serious about that list ?

    Carvalho, Deco, Lampard, Terry, Sniejder, Milito, Ozil DiMaria , Hazard were all top top players before Mourinho managed them. The majority cost hefty transfer fees to be at the clubs in the first place. Very few were youngsters out of the academy or bargain buys for 5 million.

  112. alexanderhenry

    Let’s define what ‘developing’ talent actually is.

    If a manager works with a youth player or a player from a lower league or someone who had been previously average and that player improves noticeably and consistently going from average to good, or from good to excellent , the manager should get credit for ‘developing’ that player.

  113. STV

    Alexander Henry, I said they were proven, top players. But Mourinho made huge improvement on them, and made them world class player.

    Case in point how did you find Drogba at Marseille and then at Chelsea. Sneijder at Real and Inter?

    Mourinho strength lies in bringing the best out of his players.

    Now Wenger of old too did this. However he’s no longer capable of improving top players and his ability to devolop youngsters are at best, questionable.

  114. Wallace

    alexanderhenry

    ” you cannot be serious where
    Lampard, Terry, Robben , Drogba, Ramos , Ozil, di Maria, Sneijder and Hazard are concerned.”

    nope, Hazard was a complete unknown before he rocked up at Chelsea for £32m 🙂