So the pre-cursor to the Arsenal AGM was interesting, nothing earth shattering, but some good details regardless.
We had a special guest appearance from @Andersred who is the United equivalent of the Swiss Ramble. He came armed with a Powerpoint Presentation and a wealth of interesting graphs, facts and figures. Below is a mix of what he said and what the AST crowd said.
Please digest responsibly…
Facts and Figures
- Our profit is solely derived from player sales and property… Gulp
- Queensland will net us £25mill… The last of the property.
- Our revenue is £225mill, United’s is £300mill… we’re doing great on that front.
- Historic commercial deals are hampering us…
- We blew £3mill on Slaughter &May un-tendered for ratifying the Kroenke deal.
- Stan’s last game was Liverpool vs Arsenal in April.
- If we miss out on Europe entirely, a fire sale of players Leeds-esque is not an option.
- Our wages are £125mill… We should finish 4th if wages are an indicator of final league standing.
- If we don’t finish 4th, that transfer surplus will bridge the finance gap for a year. Bugger…
- United take all the profit on for kit sales as their shop is owned by Nike. No stock or risk is owned by them.
- We can’t do a DHL deal, rumour has it that it was an anomaly in the contract that allowed a training kit sponsor deal to happen.
- Gazidis earned a 60% of salary bonus last year, in line with United’s David Gil. How was he bonused? What was the criteria?
- Wenger took nigh on £7mill. Again, just to reiterate, no bonus, pure cash. Why would a manager risk salary when he can get it all? The manager doesn’t like paying out the big dollar, but he likes earning it.
- When you take out bonuses and the cost of MUTV, the wage bills between the two clubs are £9mill apart. United are 2 £100k a week players away from us in cost.
- Our biggest problem is wage inefficiency. When we were dominating, we were further away from United in wage spend than we are now.
- According to Red&White… Stan borrowed every penny to takeover Arsenal. He could put it on the club anytime he fancied.
- United have 21 commercial deals, ten of them with foreign comms companies. If we could be successful on the pitch, we could match that.
- We only made £2mill on the Asian tour, that could be worth £20mill in 3 years.
- Stan would make £80mill clear profit of he sold to Usmanov for £14k a share
- Arsenal marketing department and the medical crew will do a Q&A for AST Members. Tom Fox… we’re gunning for you and that comment you made about season tickets being too cheap. United don’t give their supporter groups access to anyone or any info.
Man City Challenges…
- They have to lower amortisation.
- Bring in real comm deals. The Abu Dhabi sweet shop sponsoring their coach wing mirrors for £40million a year won’t be able to sustain that type of continued investment. You’d have to hope the FFP will clamp down on that type of activity as well.
- Bring through youth. They’ve got a multi-million pound training resort going in, but they’ll need to actually bring through some young talent to offset their massive investment in players.
- Win on the pitch. Sounds simple, but the best way to improve revenues is to win. Success on the pitch breeds commercial success everywhere else.
- Increase their match day income (£23mill). Being in the North West where there are so many fun things to do for corporates and fans alike hampers match day revenues and leads to shortfalls in ticket sales. Their match day revenues are embarrassingly low, these need to improve.
What Arsenal do to return as a powerhouse?
- Become an elite mega brand. Liverpool and United are arguably the only two of those we have currently. We need to speculate to accumulate here if we want that type of status. Madrid did, not they’re on top commercial wise.
- Can we perform? Again, no one wants to be your friend if you’re not winning. No one will buy your flags, cups and seat plaques if there are no trophies.
- Can we sort wages? We need to get back to a meritocracy. If Diaby gets jealous and thinks he can earn more elsewhere, let him go. Bring back some pride and the concept of earning a contract.
- There is a top 6 competing for 4 places. That can’t be sustained. Someone is going to have to wind their salaries in and let the new top 4 settle into life. If we drop out of Europe, that could be us if we don’t watch it. We need to be in that elite to survive at the top.
- Hope FFP is enforced.
So there are the details, I’ll leave you to pick through them and decide which ones you believe to be important.
For me the highlights are that United’s wage bill is only two top quality signings away from us. That tells me two things, 1) The Stadium absolutely allows us to compete on salaries now, how badly we distribute it compared to the NW club is down to the manager 2) We’ll never be a City like powerhouse (unless Usmanov muscles in), but once the proper commercials roll in, we’ll be able to offer elite salaries and we’ll be able to use surplus cash to buy players.
Our biggest most important fight is about staying in the Champions League. Once that goes it’s a massive uphill battle to get back in. The longer we’re out, the harder it’ll be to fund the massive salaries you need to get there. All our future success off the pitch is about our current success on the pitch.
Whatever way you look at it, complacency has us where we are now. The assumption of the manager he could continue to compete without spending has finally caught up with him. We’ll see how that pans out over the year…
We had a good laugh in the bar after, I met up with people from all over blog world, the away hardcore, the BSM and some of the AST finance chaps. It’s always good to put face to avatars, people might have different points of view, but when you’re face to face and you see the passion people have for the club, you kind of hope Ivan Gazidis and co know how lucky they are to have us… regardless of how much we can be a pain in the ass.
If you want to join the Arsenal Supporters Trust, go to their new website and sign up, your two pound a month gets you far more value than Oxfam.
So… what do you think? Thoughts on a post card…
P.S. I saw the West Ham deal for the Olympic Stadium collapsed, the Government now want to rent it out instead of handing it over to a club. £2million rent a year! Jeez… we take more revenue per game!
Another point is that Wenger may have played a blinder in terms of his position, I’ve said for 3 years he is tactically inept and as many of you agree there is no plan B.
However we are now in a position realistically regarding players where the only attraction to join the club is to work under Arsene. Especially if as it seems after this season we will not be able to offer CL football.
It can’t be their dreams or ambition the play alongside Song, Arteta, Ramsey, Arshavin, Rosicky, Chamackh etc etc
This is a candle in the wind season
And in other news….
Park can’t stop scoring for his national team, yet another goals scored in the ongoing game……
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2TtqePh3xw
Fak. 60% bonus salary? You have to ask whether he deserved the salary even. We will drown if things continue like that.
By the way look at our injured players, they form a better team than we field every week.
Ryan the Lion.
There is no debt leveraged against the club, like at Man U. The 14m you mention must be the interest on the stadium. (No capital). The capital on top of this is about 5.3m. Reducing the balance gradually over the next 20 years.
Kroenke, technically, used his own money… (whether he borrowed it or not). I’m not sure if he could subsequently dump that debt onto the club but my suspicion is that he could if he choose to. He holds 66% of the shares so he has the clout. He could decide for example that the club could pay a dividend!(which it doesn’t generally) or to be more precise the board could decide!
But I’ll shut up now as I’m getting into areas I don’t fully understand!
Tom.
Keown & Bergkamp! Legends.. If we just had those two alone now we would be something. Kos, squll, Djourou, Gibbs etc would be so afraid to make a mistake as Keown would give it to them in the neck and not wait for the manager!
Is Bojan the next “lost boy”????
Just like Cesc, when Barca don’t need you they shit on you, then when you’r more established, they remember how you are the “lost boy coming home”
I feel like vomiting out of disgust, those cunts
http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2011/10/10/2705658/romas-bojan-krkic-if-pep-guardiola-called-me-i-would-not-go-back-?
@Thomas
I understand that, but its like me buying a house for £1,000,000 on a 100% mortgage. I own the house but I owe the bank over £1,000,000.
This is why I do not understand Kroenke not reducing debt or investing or having a manager who can keep his best players (assets).
Regarding Cesc, if I had a property portfolio and knew my most valuable property was worth £50-£60mil, I would not sell it for anything less. This is a business not a charity or breeding ground.
This is why Silent Stan is pissing me off
@Phil
Stop talking about shit you obviously know nothing about. There are plenty of very good owners in America. Just in my city alone we have two of the best, Mark Cuban owns the Dallas Mavericks, and Nolan Ryan owns the Texas Rangers. Its also an American owner who has brought Liverpool back to life so honestly what’s your point? Certainly there couldn’t be both good and bad owners all over the world……….moron.
I wonder what Danny Fiszman would have made of all of this. He was terrified about Usmanov garnering power of Arsenal.
Do you guys think that it was was Usmanov specifically, or do you think it was generally a no to any Abramovic style takeover? I have heard some pretty dark tales about Usmanov, disappearing “colleagues”, sexual assault accusations etc, maybe he is not the saviour we think he is. There is a lot of people saying “we want our Arsenal back”, is giving it to usmanov really going to achieve this?/ Is there any such thing as a free lunch?
The irony i suppose is, that chelsea and city are having to become more like Arsenal because of the ffp rules, and Abramovic admires what we do and see’s a sustainable future as the one for chavs. I guess the question is, do we wait to see is ffp works ( in which case the arsenal way will be vindicated, or do we risk taking the money of a alleged criminal to get us out of a tight spot? Plus what will be usmanov’s “conditions”? A place on the board? A demand of a majority share. Do we really want to become known as goonski’s?
I want investment, but as we draw towards Fpp, should we stick to our guns? . I suppose in normal situation we would say “wait to see where we are in the league in Jan” and if we are doing badly invest and visa versa. But Arsenal are in the opposite position. If we are doing badly in Jan, we will struggle to get the players we all want and need, due to the chance of no champions league. If we are in the top 4 then will they see investment as requisite as Fpp gets closer? How much would it take to sort us out?? 100 million on top of our existing transfer/wage kitty? Surely if kroenke had any interest in the long term future of this club he could secure that money, debt and interest free ( off his wife) Wallmart is the biggest grossing shopping empire in the world right?? Can someone explain to me how it could effect our sustainability if we received the money from our owner?? Couldn’t it just be “written off” as debt. Or does Stan want the quick buck? Oh danny, what would you make of all this?
Goon, Chelsea are well placed to be FFP compliant. Only the Italian clubs are struggling, mainly because no one goes.
fine post Pedro.
gotta love Keown the legend, he knows his articles are pressing our buttons.
We all want AW’s mob to come down of their pedestal and welcome in some recent legends to help the squad and he’s going about getting it in the public sphere.
Honestly, why do people keep talking about FFP??
Do you really believe that UEFA will ban the like of Man City, barcelona, Milan, Man U…etc.
Uefa need those clubs more than the clubs uefa….FACT!!
Pedro, if FFP lets City get away with selling naming rights at such high prices without a proper investigation then almost everyone will be able to jump through such massive loopholes.
Abramovic can just have his oil (or is it steel, cannot be bothered to go check) company sponsor Cech’s scrumcap to the value of £100m.
Or they can be clever and establish a small 4th league team in Russia (or basically any team that is not required to be FFP compliant), let that team purchase say Neymar at £40m and sell Neymar to Chelsea for £2m (or better yet, “loan” him out to Chelsea so the little Russian team can pay a big part of wages just so that Chelsea is staying FFP compliant: they didnt pay anything for the 4 year loan and they pay hardly anything in wages).
Surely FFP must be written so that there are very few loopholes and that there is freedom for them to investigate questionable deals to make the books balance?
Gooner83, very good point on UEFA needing the big clubs much more than they need UEFA.
Haha
Goon, like his hero Wenger thinks FPP is Arsenals white knight.
How wrong he is.
Great post Pedro. Sorting out player wages is a must. Man utd seem much better at handling this than us.
Thanks for the link to the article Arsenal Tom. Laughed out loud at the monkey’s head story.
I reckon the richest clubs will form a super league, and tell Uefa to stick it one day in any case.
just a general rule of company administration, certain actions by the board require the passing of special resolutions, a ‘special resolution’ requires a 75% of eligible voting share appoval by shareholders.
Now I have not looked into voting rights attached to shares (or even if different classes of share exist), or specifically what the articles of asociation say regarding such items as approval for commercial decisions which fall outside the general authority to execute contracts.
Nor do I know if any special shareholder agreement exists (as it did previously with the lock out clause pre-sale to Kronke).
But the ability of Kronke to make mass decisons without the approval of AU holding company, is limited only to items requiring ordinary resolutions (50% of voting rights meaning unless excluded from voting by articles under declaration of interest Stan can in the main ‘call the shots’).
Hence, why one might suspect Stan cannot load his debt onto the club as it is in effect a loan to a director (stan being both a director and shareholder) requiring shareholder approval which (unless specified otherwise) would require AU holding company support, which he isn’t about to do any time soon clearly.
Hope that helps explain a couple of things about why having 75% ownership is different to having 50%+1 to 74.999%.
I would imagine the AST would better line of sight of articles of association and any shareholder agreements in place.
as an aside the driectors also have a general duty under s171 companies act 2006 to act within their specified powers according to the constitution of the business.
Agreed Carlito.
The whole idea that clubs should not be allowed to lose money is ridiculous.
Spending money on players you cant really afford, and having benefactors is part of the game. Football is a sport, it shouldnt be made to conform to some silly arbitrary laws.
If a restaurant loses money one year you dont see Michelin taking their stars back. If I blow £5000 in Vegas I dont get banned from going back.
Michelin only take stars away based upon quality / standards, not profitability. Like Gordon Ramsey @ Clarigdes did last year.
Perhaps it is no great irony in the analogy that performance leads to success, with higher rating restaurants leading the way for prestiege and turnover.
Restaurants have to spend time, and money, to get performance, technical skills and execution perfect to attain that level.
gambon,
i think its important to keep an eye on the effects of wage inflation has on our economy don’t you?
not sure I agree that footballers wages should be allowed to keep rocketing organically while nurses are getting fucked over £20K a year.
its all connected somehow.
FFP is a crude wage cap but its heart is in the right place.
If you know your History all good Frenchmen are best when they are Reatreating,Wengers no exception,forward two paces backwards 4 paces ,nothing’s going to change while he’s in charge.
sadly the private owners don’t have to tell us anything
I fear at the end of the day FFP will work against Arsenal, not in it’s favour
WE already are NOT SUSTAINABLE if we rely solely on our footballing return, what’s keeping us above water is the real estate business….. We are in a downward on-pitch wise, so I fear those commercial deals all of us hoping for won’t be that attractive and won’t cover the loss we are going to have when we’ll lose the CL money and our remaining best players….
Then Stan will ran, and come Usmanov, how can we use his money to save us, if the FFP will be already in action by then?
can’t see a super league being great for away supporters, taking 2 days out of work every week to support your clubs going be a tough sell.
carlito, you are not alone in thinking that the formation of a ‘european league’is not too far away.
In order to sustain thier business models the breakaway clubs at the top of each league will demand an increaased sare of the pot.
The only way this can happen is if they control a greater proportion of the media revenue available.
The next few decades are going to be interesting from an evolutionary perspective.
some of the people who back FFP to succeed are going to be very upset.
AFC seem to aligned themselves to Platini suceeding, forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that the ‘big gun’ clubs can still afford good enough lawyers to ‘interpret’ or find mechanisms ‘like a feeder club – loan arrangement’.
Whilst agents and other 3rd parties find new ways to control ‘player assets’ and IP rihts that in turn wll be come more valuable as the media revenue continues to dominat i.e.the likes of Kia Joorabchian.
But what do I care about perceiveing what might or might not happen in the future, I mean it’s not as if it’s entirely predictable if you take a long hard look around at the moment. Is it?
I think a wage limitation like in the NBA is a better way to deal with the big money spenders…..
You can spend X on wages no more, so you have to deal with it, and in some way it stops the enlarging gap between the top teams and the others, and also capitulate the teams, players and most important greedy agents into squares….
Sounds like one of three things need to happen 1) FFP is properly enforced 2) Usmanov takes over 3) Wenger pulls his finger out and starts performing the miracles like he did in the late 90′s and early 00′s.
I am curious as to how much Kronke is open to selling to Usmanov.
A super league may run alongside domestic leagues anyway. I think that it’s the big european clubs that hold the power, not Uefa. If they try being too dictatorial, against the wishes of the major clubs, they could arrange things to suit themselves.
James Wood – if you are bringing history into it, don’t forget the Norman conquest when 8,000 Frenchmen came to England, defeated the Brits, wiped out the ruling class and stayed here ever after.
lurch, european superleague won’t target ‘fans’ they will target ‘corporate’ and sponsors, will be come more like followng F1. fans will have to accomodate and pay through the nose to be a part of it.
And some will, pay over the odds.
The biggest obstacle currently is not the english / french / spanish or italian leagues (let’s face it all of them would bend over backwards at the top for more money). It’s the germans! The future of the EPL may yet have them to thank for obstinate and well structured business models.
Who says life is not without it’s sense of irony.
The normans weren’t french.
big dave.. i have been saying this for ages wenger should bring in specilasied people,,for defence, attack and other areas…
park is scoring all these goals but wendger will say he is tired thats why he is not on the bench!
I can’t see why having a rich benefactor is any worse than a regional government helping a club out of debt.
No Timao,they have all slipped back ,because of high taxes,poor food,a political system geared at taking as much as possible from the Middle classes.?
And the one remaining shit who’s fucking our Foootball team up.
Yippee,
what your describing doesn’t sound great for in ground atmosphere you have to admit.
F1 is a sport that can survive without the aid of a 12th man. can football?
The effect that footballers wages have on inflation is precisely 0.
As for the nurses argument, i hate that.
If 60k people paid £40 to watch nurses patching up a wound they could ask for £100k pw.
“Spending money on players you cant really afford, and having benefactors is part of the game. Football is a sport, it shouldnt be made to conform to some silly arbitrary laws.
If a restaurant loses money one year you dont see Michelin taking their stars back. If I blow £5000 in Vegas I dont get banned from going back.”
Now all you need is the real gambon to jump in and call this one a retard.
when is outr next CL game, is it home or away!
lifes not all about spectacular entertainment Gambon, the more we marginalise sectors of our population the higher the likely hood for internal conflict.
but I get your point, its not the fault of the sport that its so appealing and generates so much revenue.
The problem is the sport exists on top of a society bent on spending beyond its means and for the majority thats a sticky wicket.
james wood-
lurch is correct: normans were not french, they were of nordic decent.
petain and neville did a fine job after retreat in verdun and the removal of joffre…just saying.
let’s not kid ourselves, there is enough cynicism here to realise that we all know that as long as there is someone else to take their place, fans are expendable.
The 12th man ideology, whilst noble has increasingly less influence on the game. You only have to look at the rebellions in denmark (amongst other clubs including those in italy) recently as how this is already happening across europe, and how little impact in the medium term it is having.
Atmoshpere is an interesting point, as it can be quite well artificially created, the technology and the principles exist already.
Trouble is that there are so many disparate groups even within sections of fans, that there is no single voice , so corporate will always win.
Football is not a sport any more, it is a business. So all matters pertaining to the running of any club begin and end with business principles.
Tragic, but true.
As an example, the ony thing that nearly made Blatter step down was not any form of political positioning when all was said and done, when you look back on the whole fiasco it was whether he could bring the sponsors wih him. He could, so he was backed.
all good points Yippee.
i don’t doubt the technology will improve in that time as well so we can get a much better home experience to rival being at the venue.
Don’t take things so personally KC
It must be terrible to have your country criticized
Although it is ironic that you neglected to mention the the other well known Texan owner – Jerry Jones who was so desperate to break attendance records at the Superbowl in Dallas that he oversold tickets, and put up unsafe temporary seating. Thousands of people flew along way, and paid big money to be treated with contempt.
Then of course there are the owners of the LA Dodgers, Mr and Mrs McCourt who are fighting a divorce settlement, with the major asset being the club. of course they are interested in the fans!
How many teams, in a variety of sports have moved cities at the behest of their owners?
The owners might have the legal right, but don’t pretend they care about their fans who suddenly find their team has moved from LA to St.Louis.
Phil – How have the Denver Nuggets under-achieved ?!
Frenchie i never mentioned the Normans.?
Keyser, tell me what they have won. They had one season recently when they gave the Lakers a tough run, but other than that they are decent but not elite. Which is what we were up till last season, but now we are shite.
Some owners care about profits, the others who have billions like Cuban do it simply for the love. That’s the owner we need.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/89/africa/2011/10/11/2705840/former-arsenal-cameroon-star-lauren-sets-up-fitness-centre
“Although it is ironic that you neglected to mention the the other well known Texan owner – Jerry Jones who was so desperate to break attendance records at the Superbowl in Dallas that he oversold tickets, and put up unsafe temporary seating. Thousands of people flew along way, and paid big money to be treated with contempt.”
Did you forget to mention anything ?!
Dimitri – So how have they under-achieved ?! You honestly think Cuban doesn’t care about profits ?!
Here’s a stat me and pals heard from a guy in the boozer.
In 14/15 years of being at Arsenal Arsene’s total spend on new players compared to the amount of received by selling players is 16 million in the red! So he has spent 16 million quid in 14 years, they will never sack him.
but we need fat Boris in and sling out skinny Hank! to go forward.
james-
you are right. my mistake…it was timao responding to you. my apologies, sir.
Championships won by the Denver Nuggets = 0. Their salary cap isn’t exactly minimum wage. Never really go beyond the first or second round of the playoffs. Hardly a recipe for a successful team.
Cuban cares, sure. But he knows the number one rule of business that you have to speculate to accumulate, and spends whatever it takes to make the Mavs successful, which is exactly what happened last season. The way he talks about the game in any of his interviews clearly shows his enthusiasm for the game.
Listen to him talk about it then listen to Kroenke, and tell me he talks like he knows what the fuck he’s talking about.
in that video is keown having a dig
lurch-
even god agrees with you.
http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/115358.html
Agreed Dimitri.
Keyser,
They haven’t been a bad team, but when was the last time they went all the way?
Dimitri – The number one rule in Business ? Heh, yet he obviously loves the Sport.
There’s all sorts of owners in the leagues in America the over-riding factor is how each of the Sports are run, how do you criticise Kroenke and draw parrallels when the Sport we have over here isn’t run in the same way.
hair-splitting, they spoke french, lived in france, scoffed garlic and answered to the king of france.
Well exactly Keyser, and that’s something Kroenke clearly doesn’t get at all. In America, all the sports leagues, at least Ice Hockey and Basketball anyway have a salary cap, which means the spending can never get too crazy. He is operating us in the same way, referring to us as a franchise, not once when he finally spoke did he speak about an ambition of winning anything. What he basically said was we believe in spending a certain amount, and if we win something great, then if not it isn’t the critical factor, since in America because of the salary cap it has become a lot harder for one single team to win the title year after year.
To be successful in football now, the owners have to be willing to fork out of their own pocket a little bit, which is something Kroenke will clearly never do. Some owners take risks from their own personal fortunes like Cuban or Jerry Buss, the best owner in sports. High risk = high gain.
Kroenke opts not to invest from his own wealth, clearly because it’s all tied up in assets, and he’s happy to make a small profit for a low risk. Small mentality at the top leads to a small team on the pitch.
Be careful of what you are listing as facts and figures:
o Our biggest problem is wage inefficiency (this is an opinion)
o If we miss out on Europe entirely, a fire sale of players Leeds-esque is not an option. (Again, this is an opinion. Even if Ivan Gazidis stated it is not an option, we can only state that we have Ivan Gazidis assurance that a fire sale is not an option.)
o Our wages are £125mill… We should finish 4th if wages are an indicator of final league standing. (This statement is not even correct…We should finish 4th if wages are the sole indictator of final league standing)
I could keep going, but I bring this up not to nit pick. Right now, the climate amongst fans of AFC is very heated. As such, our passions can tend to cloud reality by espousing information as fact, when it is not necessarily so. This only enflames matters and makes them worse.
CYOG!!
Lurch: correct, they were from Scandinavian ancestry. But it’s so easier to say they were French init?
It’s the same Viking people that populated northern Britain…
American Football is pony!
Love it the “History Channel” here on “Le Grove.:)
IG, if you wanna invoke history and be selective with the bits you take fine but correcting someone with a loaded answer isn’t gravy is it?
its no biggie, don’t care either way….
besides
they had an accord with the french king, but it was mutual, he was wary of antagonising the Normans who were well equipped in the art of war.
They spoke french sure, they spoke Roman as well, shall we call them francoromans?
I’ll also add England actually would have become a Norman kingdom without a french king, Edward III…. Robert Bruce’s legacy had been almost wiped out, and his “armies” would never have held against Normans alone… And it’s that same King’s doings that led to the war of 100 years, and helped England free themselves at the same time from Normans and French…
1. Gary, wage inefficiency is our biggest problem when it comes to wages. We can’t shift on expensive flops, it’s costing us £15million a year. That’s a player or 3 players on massive money. Pretty huge problem when our profit a year is £15million.
2. We can’t quick fire sale players. Not an opinion, a legally binding fact.
3. If you follow football finances, you’ll know that there is a pretty good theory to correlate your wage bill standing with league position. There is a research paper on this.
The points in that article are from people who are far more knowledgeable about football finance than you.
Nit picking is only worthwhile if you’ve got the facts.
Wenger gets 7 million per year? That is a disgrace
Dimitri – The point should be that in Sport we shouldn’t need the deep pockets of a rich benefector to keep us competitive, you can highlight whatever owner you want really but the thing to take from American Sports is that they’ve at least tried to implement something that stops the spending from getting too crazy, while there’s still markets that are domineering like Boston, New York or LA.
Cuban still spent how many years building that team, replacing, recruiting and rehiring players, it wasn’t just because he invested his own money it was a far more complicated process of trial and error and in the end Dallas won the Championship because they were the best TEAM, not the best collection of individuals, though Miami ran them close, but because that specific year it all clicked.
How do you know what Kroenke will do ? If we come close or have built the structure up to the point where all we need is a little push, and like you say he might not have the money anyway.
Lurch: I didnt say “But it’s so easier to say they were French init?” against you, but to insist on what you said yourself… sorry if that was misunderstood.
and I dont see what the following is linked to: “IG, if you wanna invoke history and be selective with the bits you take fine”, I dont see where I’ve been selective here? anyway, at the end of the day, it’s the generalisation that bothered both of us.
“The points in that article are from people who are far more knowledgeable about football finance than you.”
AKB, AKB, AKB..
Where are all those points from ? Not the hired Manc ? Surely not.
Georgie Thompson on sky sports sheer class!
timao says:
October 11, 2011 at 17:05
hair-splitting, they spoke french, lived in france, scoffed garlic and answered to the king of france.
—-
well, they invaded northern France too you know …
they even invaded southern Italy and attacked the Holy Land…
but ok, whatever.
Keyser:
crazy deals like what, like Beckham signed with LA Galaxy?
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/SPORT/football/01/11/beckham/
couple of interesting facts in that.
1) Wenger earns about 135K per week!
2) We are now all becoming obsessed with the financial background to the club, how we will become a brand and alike.
I don’t really care about it, I care about watching a team of players try and score goals and not concede them. I appreciate it is the backgroud to it but as long as we maintain our financial position or improve it then we should look at what goes on the pitch. I believe we might be getting our priorities twisted.
Financial success and becoming a mega brand is most easily achieved by winning games and winning championships. Why did every school child in England have a Man U shirt in the 90′s? Because they won everything. Why did their brand spread aroud the world? because they won time and again domestically and even won in Europe.
Sensible investment up front leads to success which leads to further growth and expansion and gives the platform for further success.
Fulham spent in advance to build a winning team to work their way up the leagues, they are now a premier league club with a turnover vastly in excess of what they could have dreamed of in the early 90s
Financial success does not precede winning games/trophies/championships it goes hand in hand with it. If we won the league and season ticket prices went up 10% it would be much easier to accept!
Crazy spending, dunno how the MLS or the LA Galaxy’s pay is structured, but someone like Albert Pujols could probably ask for 20+ million dollars a year, but the overall spending of the St Louis Cardinals will have to be under a certain amount or in proportion to their turnover.
Its very early in the game, but so far Merts has shut down Hazard twice.. So hopefully he can continue that, and then bring that form back to The Arsenal.
I don’t think Beckham’s deal was as lucrative as the media reported. (I heard Marcotti saying that when all the conditions/stipulations are factored in he was probably only marginally better off than when he was at Real.)
http://youtu.be/s6nZGlAja48
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6nZGlAja48&w=420&h=315
Just because people are far more knowledgeable does not mean what they say is fact…it is merely an expert opinion.
As for point #2, fair play to you and I stand corrected.
with regard to that photo of edu at arsenal. the first thing i would do is remove all those cushions from the benches. a pampered arse-nal in many ways. or do they throw them around like the bunch of kids they are ? i can see walcott doing that the fuckin blouse.
Actually Belgium’s squad is fantastic and bombed with high quality players tbh……
Keyser: exactly, you don’t know.
you switch so easily from MLS to say thats how it is done in USA, you should do the same, then give me the example of a baseball team.
This is Europe, and this is Football.
for info:
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries
I’ll know direct you to a good presentation of these systems.
http://myportfolio.usc.edu/ruixu/2010/04/mlbs_rookie_salary_structure_and_free_agent_system_efficient_and_equitable.html
If you can not exceed the “slot value” in matter of wage, you will offer like for Beckham a package including lot of bonuses, and to compensate the loss on the business aspect due to the drafting process.
for that salary cap to actually work the same way as USA, you need a draft system. Without that “slot value” principle, the salaries would go much higher. You talk about one country, with multiple states. Here you talk about one federal state, and many countries.
How are you going to enforce drafting process in Poland?
Gary. point 1) there is a correlation of 0.75 between the 2.
that means in 75% of the cases, the saying is true, that your final position in the league table matches your position on the wagebill.
dismissing it because there’s 25% chance left to differ from the norm, is just that.
you can say that sometimes it happens, but saying we should be more likely to finish 3-4 than 10th based on our wage bill is not without sense.
IvoryGoonz – The short answer is who gives a fuck, they at least tried to do something to maintain the sporting element of it, there’s ways around everything like FFP and what Citeh have done with sponsorship, but at least they tried.
Also I wasn’t trying to pusposely mislead or decieve you I don’t watch much MLS, even if it does come with ESPN anyway.
How about the fact that football in America doesn’t have anywhere near the sort of popularity or history that other Sports in America have and Beckham, a fading Star over here, was seen as the sort of Star name that could boost it’s profile.
Lastly, heh, thanks for making my point, too many difference for there to straight parallels drawn between American Sports and football over here to say if Kroenke did this there he’d do the same here.
Cracker by Ozil.. wow
nice counter germany
Keyser: Kroenke’s way of doing his business is not based on the financial rules of a country and a sport.
Im saying he will not invest because he usually doesnt with his other businesses, saying that HE doesnt give a fuck because he didnt come to see a game since April last year, saying that HE doesn’t have money, and that his wife does, tells me all I need to know. (and no, Im not anti-american either, I have a close cousin living in Houston, and a big branch of the family in Minneapolis-St Paul)
It could never tell you ALL you need to know, what do you think it has told you ?!
Like if he has NO money to invest, most of the argument’s moot anyway.
Bade, Belgium are entering a golden age, Eddy Nazar being the beacon.
Keyser: “How about the fact that football in America doesn’t have anywhere near the sort of popularity or history that other Sports in America have and Beckham, a fading Star over here, was seen as the sort of Star name that could boost it’s profile.”
—
you get some of our old players who are not good enough anymore to compete and sustain first team football at CL level to promote Football in USA, and at the same time you got us rid of Posh. We should pay your country, true, and so?
what does that have to do with point 1 – wage efficiency?
that you count the impact of Beckham on the sales and audience? as a counter-balance for his expensive cost?
Who’s actually checking the value? the FA? What happens if you have a recession? you promised lot of money, and you lose?
and what does that have to do with the wagebill?
what I was trying to tell you is that even if there’s an actual salary cap, nothing prevents bypassing that with bigger signing fees, and sales %age, and hundreds more loopoles.
And that the point is that we have lot of wagebill and squad numbers frozen on Diaby (16.6 games a season), Squillaci, … then loanees Denilson, Bendtner …
Than instead of having Diaby, Rosicky, Arshavin, we could have Gotze and Hazard.
Turkey are being held by Azerbaijan but they are 2nd on head to head, Belgium should have done better to get in a position where they don’t need to beat Germany.
Keyser: it tells me he’s been chozen to take majority so that Wenger could keep on his cheap ways and keep paying the board’s and employees hefty salaries while not spending, and keep breaking his record of numbers of transactions made.
Keyser: and it tells me unless the shares lose value, Kroenke will not sell his, or issue new shares for Usmanov to strengthen the team, and avoid having him on board.
mr grimsdale! mr grimsdale! there’s a lot of norman wisdom on here today
Lets keep the old fingers crossed that our boys come trough tonight’s games unscathed.
timao-
the normans also ruled in the levante and sicily.
David Rocastle: “It was our team-mate, our little blood brother, in trouble. They were kicking Nigel like a nightclub brawl. That’s what got us upset. If it was just a bad tackle, you wouldn’t go in like that, no chance. But when I saw them kicking Nigel I ran over thinking, ‘You can’t have this!’ We went in there and we stuck up for each other. At Arsenal we never, ever started any brawls – we just finished them.”
IvoryGoonz – What did your Beckham point have to do with wage efficiency ? Do you have an inate knowledge of the MLS or the LA Galaxy ?!
The reason I talked of Kroenke was because people are trying to draw parrallels between the way he runs his American teams to the prospective way he could choose to run us.
The reason I only used specific Sports is because :
It was questioned above whether teams like the Nuggets (Basketball) and St Louis Rams (American football) were well run or successful, I just don’t think it’s as simple as that, for some of the points that were raised above, and like you said people hadn’t even got onto the draft system.
If he has no money anyway, then the arguments moot. Ironically his MLS team won the play-offs in 2010.
Talk to people who know about the MLS, Beckham was bought as much as a name as anything at least according to the few media outlets from America I follow so wage efficiency isn’t as prevalent in comparison to other sports in his specific case, and the set-up of the MLS might be different.
So surely it’s only worthwhile discussing the established Sports to get an accurate account ?!
Beckham wouldn’t really be a fair example of your point.
“And that the point is that we have lot of wagebill and squad numbers frozen on Diaby (16.6 games a season), Squillaci, … then loanees Denilson, Bendtner …
Than instead of having Diaby, Rosicky, Arshavin, we could have Gotze and Hazard.”
Also on this I tried to point this out last time, it’s all well and good saying we’re inefficiently run and pointing inwards to these players, but without comparison to other clubs it’s pointless, and in the case of Citeh and Chelsea it’s moot anyway because they haven’t had to be efficiently run in accordance with us, they can simply choose to look at us and spend more.
The question is, is it fair to expect us to be that efficiently run that we have no players who don’t offer us value.
Keyser: I was just answering your point
“but the thing to take from American Sports is that they’ve at least tried to implement something that stops the spending from getting too crazy, ”
I just took Beckham’s case to show you it doesnt prevent crazy deals.
Keyser: forget it.
AKB.
merts just got smashed by witsel.. small limp now
“Keyser: I was just answering your point
“but the thing to take from American Sports is that they’ve at least tried to implement something that stops the spending from getting too crazy, ”
I just took Beckham’s case to show you it doesnt prevent crazy deals.”
How ?!
ShaL’OM.
“Arsene and Stan and Peter HW and Ivan the other dithering “dingbats” need to stop looking in the rear-view mirror at past glories, try to steer Arsenal away from the grand canyon ahead and focus on the now”
That Bale guy is one lucky bitch.
Keyser: if you cant see it, I cant help you.
Guess what, MertSackers limping…dont worry Djouroudelusional is back
NOW run by crooks and liars? That’s the problem. Everyone trusted the Board that sold to these crooks and liars without any hesitation, and never once questioned or challanged anything they said or did, and those who did were targettted as enemies of the club or sad fools who just didn’t get the Arsenal Way. Well I rthink we all got the Arsenal Way then and those who trusted the Board so much get it now even if they still can’t admit it.
Does anyone think that iff indeed Stak Kroenke is Hicks/Gillette MK Ii the custodians of the club who entrusted its firture to him didn’t know this? After all he was only paying them 300 million pounds, and I’m guessing they would have made sure they were getting their money and thus knew how he was paying.
Shows how much they really cared about Arsenal =after all, doesn’t it?
http://www.theshortfuse.com/2011/9/30/2459752/stan-kroenke-speaks
IvoryGoonz – See what ? You can’t help me until you help yourself.
Keyser: you talk “competitive”. yeah right. top 4 is good enough for you.
just tell me that.
Im talking winning the title.
What are you on about now ? Heh.
Why is the Beckham deal crazy and what did it show ?!
Keyser: Beckham=$250m deal.
is this is not crazy for an has-been?
and I dont see what I need help with at the moment…
You seem to ignore all that has been said by the Silent Man himself.
IvoryGoonz – Are you saying you’re guessing ? You mean you just threw it out there and didn’t know whether it was a crazy deal or not ?!
That’s what I mean with you need to help yourself first, or am I supposed to argue your case for you aswell.
Keyser: and that system is not better or worst than the FFP. different, and still doesnt prevent money flowing.
that it is ridiculous to even talk about it, because as I wrote earlier, it all rest on the draft system, and that you couldnt have such a system here.
Kroenke said himself all was in Wenger’s hands, and that he wouldnt interfer with the self-sustainable model.
The only problem we really have is the way the wagebill is actually spent, and if you ignore that, there’s nothing I can do for you.
You’re like defending Wenger with Diaby, Denilson, Bendtner, Rosicky, Djourou and others. If they cant even play 30 games
per season, why do you pay them that much for?
What’s your point now ? Do you even get what the argument was to begin with ? Heh.
Have you given up on the Beckham point ?!
Keyser: I’ve already stated it’s a crazy deal. that was called a rhetorical question.
whether it’s an exception or not, just proves that system is not working either when there’s people ready to spend money, but I already said that, and im not the only one.
so can’t you just answer the actual questions rather than just ignore them and keep asking other questions???
what does it has to do with the main point that is Kroenke will not spend a dime to strengthen the squad and that the way he manages his other sports team, and I added the way he clearly said he wouldnt change that self-sustainable business, are strong indicators he wont?
are we supposed to wait for the wall everytime?
keep being blind with Wenger and Kroenke if you want, your problem. When we’ll be fighting for the 6th place, dont come crying.
You admited yourself you didnt know anything about MLS, and probably NBA, and MLB as well right? But you take it for example.
I give you ways to compare, but you cant even answer a question straight.
and in the end, it doesnt even f*ing matter!
what’s your position about Wenger and Kroenke then?
Tried finding Parks goal a while ago with no luck. And now im after the russia highlights. Anyone know a site where i can find both?
Keyser: and f* Beckham, you just didnt get it, and Im in no mood to keep answering a joker.
101greatgoals.com
Thanks choy.
Parks international goals arent bad. Hope he can finish with the same calmness for us.
Super NB52 scores for Denmark 2-0 up against Grease boys Portugal
I have to attempt that I love Le Coq. I think he should already be playing for the Frenchies.
He won’t if he plays on the wing!
IvoryGoonz – You’re the joker, you started this off with some point about Beckham, now you say it was a rhetorical question.
Why was the deal crazy ? Read the link you gave ffs and you might have a clue.
Keyser: what’s your position about Wenger and Kroenke then?
Marvin Martin on for France… good times!
nite nite
IvoryGoonz – Mate, we’ve spent this long working out what your point is with Beckham, there’s no point starting a new conversation on something else.
“The Galaxy, citing industry experts, said the L.A. deal is worth more than $250 million (128 million pounds) in salary and commercial endorsements”
“The 31-year-old, who joined Real from Manchester United in June 2003, is the most famous player to sign up for Major League Soccer since it began in 1996.”
“David Beckham coming to MLS might be viewed by some as one of the most important moments for soccer in this coutry and perhaps the history of professional sport,” MLS Commissioner Don Garber said in a statement.”
Gnite, maybe your subconscious will work it out for you.
Nasri is such a turd…
Ivory come back don’t go to bed just yet!
Nasri never give a toss about Arsenal. He doesn’t give a fiddlers about city. He is the lowest of the low in my opinion. How dare the little fucker tap up RVP! Robin won’t listen to the little shit.
Any news on Mert? Someone said he was limping.
This was a very, very interesting read. And the simple conclusion is that our club is being mis-managed both on and off the pitch.
I fear for the future.
just read we are after the 100m rated hulk
We’ll bid £2.50
a bid of £2.50 on the last second of the transfer market after selling rvp.
oh and no medical
you’d think that sounds far fetched wouldnt you!
Nope
hulk was pretty wank when we played them a year or two ago if i remember, he didn’t even start the game at the Emirates…
has he really improved that much?
yeah and city will bid 3.75 and get him
john temple,,,
spot on
Llorente I thing is made for the premiership .He’s quick strong and mobile .I think that he could be within our price range 2-3m
We can’t play another striker till we change the formation.
bendtner is probably a better striker than llorente
Choy Llorente is top drawer .The guy is the next big thing coming from spain .We should get him tied up in January before the big boys call.
“hulk was pretty wank when we played them a year or two ago if i remember”
Sigh